District 9

[otters~1]

It was a very original concept for a movie (compared to the rest of Hollywood's output this decade) ...

Wait, what? Do you realize that refugees and immigrants are often called aliens in real life? I liked this movie but it wasn't a fucking original concept. It's an old concept, redone, reasonably well, with badass Kenyans. And what's this about Hollywood's output this decade? What does that even mean? I hate you and your kind, flagmyidol.

*rolls eyes*


What the hell do you think is original, Tanner? Pan's Labyrinth?

[SlappyMcGee]

Well, yes.

[Tanner]

Pan's Labyrinth was fantastic!

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Pan's Labyrinth was fantastic!

I think it was very, very visually appealing, but the little girl ruined it for me. That little shithead is a functional retard.
If there's a monster sitting at a table full of food, you don't take his fucking food. Or if you're brave enough to take his food, then you might as well actually kick his blind, 60-lbs, toothpick-legged ass.
And if someone asks for a single drop of your brother's blood in exchange for godhood, you shouldn't be thinking twice about cutting your fucking brother and obtaining your fucking godhood. It's not like you have to kill him. Christ on a pogostick, it's the deal of the fucking century.
And the entire message of the story was, refrain from doing anything for yourself, even if the cost to others is negligible, because it might randomly happen to be the case that abandoning the pursuit of effortlessly obtained power and happiness will earn you the pity of a profoundly stupid authority figure who will give it to you anyway. It's in the same vein as lessons taught by Disney princess stories -- continue being an underachieving dreamer, and happiness will randomly happen upon your undeserving ass.

[SlappyMcGee]

Pan's Labyrinth was fantastic!

I think it was very, very visually appealing, but the little girl ruined it for me. That little shithead is a functional retard.
If there's a monster sitting at a table full of food, you don't take his fucking food. Or if you're brave enough to take his food, then you might as well actually kick his blind, 60-lbs, toothpick-legged ass.
And if someone asks for a single drop of your brother's blood in exchange for godhood, you shouldn't be thinking twice about cutting your fucking brother and obtaining your fucking godhood. It's not like you have to kill him. Christ on a pogostick, it's the deal of the fucking century.
And the entire message of the story was, refrain from doing anything for yourself, even if the cost to others is negligible, because it might randomly happen to be the case that abandoning the pursuit of effortlessly obtained power and happiness will earn you the pity of a profoundly stupid authority figure who will give it to you anyway. It's in the same vein as lessons taught by Disney princess stories -- continue being an underachieving dreamer, and happiness will randomly happen upon your undeserving ass.

Yeah,i love fairy tales

[otters~1]

Pan's Labyrinth was fantastic!

I knew it.

Suki, I agree with you completely; my thoughts ran on exactly the same lines when she stole the goddamn grape or whatever it was. Stupid little girl.

[Tanner]

Pan's Labyrinth was fantastic!

I knew it.

Suki, I agree with you completely; my thoughts ran on exactly the same lines when she stole the goddamn grape or whatever it was. Stupid little girl.

Fairy tale! What the hell happened to you two as a children? If you want to talk about, Metanet is here for you.

[SlappyMcGee]

Hey, Tanner. I meant to ask you; I was flipping through my Grimm's Fairy Tales collection and I stumbled on one you might know something about. Why were those dumbass kids eating that witch's house? If you find a house in the center of the forest made of candy, you don't fucking eat it. Also, talk about unrealistic. Witches don't look like that, and the wildlife probably would have eaten their gumdrop trail. Those kids deserved whatever they got.

[Tanner]

SlappyMcGee, if you can't tell the difference between a wolf and your grandmother, you're a stupid cunt and deserve to have your ass eaten.

Seriously though, this is like you're reading a story where a chick comes to a ball in a pumpkin and you're complaining that there's no way she could dance in glass slippers. Fairy tale!

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Fairy tale! What the hell happened to you two as a children? If you want to talk about, Metanet is here for you.

Every Soviet child was assigned a Weigted Companion Cube, whom we were to trust, play with, and confide in. The prime time to make the child then euthanize his faithful companion cube is late enough that he understands this loss, but young enough that it traumatizes him and makes the lesson stick. I euthanized mine when I was five years old, and that gave me the early life lessons that friends are tools, dreamers are a waste of human, and nothing in life is sacred.

On a more serious note, fairy tales are fucking retarded. I'd be fine with the high levels of unrealism if any of them actually taught you anything meaningful. As they are, they're the lowest and dumbest of all forms of writing. You'd be hard-pressed to find anything with an even greater dearth of meaning or benefit for anyone involved.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling out all of fiction. On the contrary, fiction is fine. Fiction is fun. I have no problems with fiction in general. But fairy tales are for retards, who are often (thankfully) too stupid to even pick up on the "lesson" the fairy tale offers.

Pan's Labyrinth was a fairy tale.

[otters~1]

So, Suki, would you categorize Lord of the Rings as one giant fairy tale? I'm not sure a blanket statement like that is warranted or correct, though I agree wholeheartedly about Pan's Labyrinth.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

So, Suki, would you categorize Lord of the Rings as one giant fairy tale? I'm not sure a blanket statement like that is warranted or correct, though I agree wholeheartedly about Pan's Labyrinth.

Dude, I just finished saying that I'm fine with fiction. LotR is not a fuggin' fairy tale.

[SlappyMcGee]

Fairy tale! What the hell happened to you two as a children? If you want to talk about, Metanet is here for you.

Every Soviet child was assigned a Weigted Companion Cube, whom we were to trust, play with, and confide in. The prime time to make the child then euthanize his faithful companion cube is late enough that he understands this loss, but young enough that it traumatizes him and makes the lesson stick. I euthanized mine when I was five years old, and that gave me the early life lessons that friends are tools, dreamers are a waste of human, and nothing in life is sacred.

On a more serious note, fairy tales are fucking retarded. I'd be fine with the high levels of unrealism if any of them actually taught you anything meaningful. As they are, they're the lowest and dumbest of all forms of writing. You'd be hard-pressed to find anything with an even greater dearth of meaning or benefit for anyone involved.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not calling out all of fiction. On the contrary, fiction is fine. Fiction is fun. I have no problems with fiction in general. But fairy tales are for retards, who are often (thankfully) too stupid to even pick up on the "lesson" the fairy tale offers.

Pan's Labyrinth was a fairy tale.

So, then, you agree that the comparison between Pan's Labyrinth and District 9 is stupid, right?

Furthermore, I'm not sure why flagmyidol brought it up. Does he not think Pan's Labyrinth is original? I'd like to hear the arguments.

[otters~1]

So, Suki, would you categorize Lord of the Rings as one giant fairy tale? I'm not sure a blanket statement like that is warranted or correct, though I agree wholeheartedly about Pan's Labyrinth.

Dude, I just finished saying that I'm fine with fiction. LotR is not a fuggin' fairy tale.

Just making sure you draw the line somewhere reasonable.

EDIT: Slappy-- I mentioned Pan's Labyrinth because it was the first movie I thought of off the top of my head that might seem original but was actually monumentally stupid. I thought Tanner might like the trolls mixing with Nazis part.

[Tanner]

If neither of you can appreciate the appeal of a fairy tale then it's this conversation that is monumentally stupid. Saying that fairy tales are universally stupid is the same as any other genre-bashing. Rock isn't inherently better than hiphop. Serious dramas aren't inherently better than action blockbusters. Baroque isn't inherently better than Romantic. Modern fiction isn't inherently better than fairy tale. To say so is absurd.

[SlappyMcGee]

Baroque isn't inherently better than Romantic.

Well...

Edit: And to add meat to my already whopper-sized post:

flagmyidol, I don't follow your thinking. "What might seem /original/ but is /monumentally stupid/."

This is akin to saying "That man might look poor, but he's, in fact, quite tall."

[otters~1]

Slappy: I don't follow your argument, either. A mishmash of silly ideas can indeed seem creative, until you take a closer look at it. Scrutinize the movie in question a little, and it is exposed as a bizarre, random mix of unfinished plot threads and ideas.

Tanner: It was Suki who made the generalization; I believe that fairy tales (as far as that definition goes) have their place.

Anyway, weren't we talking about Disctrict 9? I can't remember any more who liked it and who didn't. Personally, I'm still waiting for Robert Downey Jr. and Jude Law.

[SlappyMcGee]

Slappy: I don't follow your argument, either. A mishmash of silly ideas can indeed seem creative, until you take a closer look at it. Scrutinize the movie in question a little, and it is exposed as a bizarre, random mix of unfinished plot threads and ideas.

Tanner: It was Suki who made the generalization; I believe that fairy tales (as far as that definition goes) have their place.

Anyway, weren't we talking about Disctrict 9? I can't remember any more who liked it and who didn't. Personally, I'm still waiting for Robert Downey Jr. and Jude Law.

Creative Ideas are not less creative because they are "stupid". This is where we are losing eachother. Insofar, your arguments against Pan's Labyrinth have been in line with Tsukatu, who criticized elements of the plot as being stupid and impossible to suspend disbelief in. My curiosity is this; do you think that the movie is less creative because of Tsukatu's arguments? I see the two things as unrelated.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Face/Off is a stupid movie. Needless to say, the plot is unique and I'll watch the movie again because it is filmed, acted and written very creatively.

And you're telling me to scrutinize the film more closely. You want to praise District 9 as creative and this film as not; I would not have drawn comparisons between the two. What I thought you were initially saying was that a film had to be very, very creative to impress Tanner; on the contrary, you have no expressed that this film isn't creative at all, but in fact a jumble of bizzare plot threads. So, your initial statement seems to only logically have been an effort to make Tanner look stupid, I guess? Are you saying that Tanner only finds creativity in stupidity?

Which is all besides the point that I am not the one that needs to scrutinize Pan's Labyrinth. For you to make a statement on the creativity of District 9, I think you should analyze the differences between the two and elaborate more. Draw some comparisons between what was particularly creative about District 9 and what was entirely mundane (By the by, mundane is the opposite of creative; not 'stupid') of Pan's Labyrinth.

[otters~1]

Creative Ideas are not less creative because they are "stupid".

It is both stupid and uncreative. I was originally being sarcastic when I brought PL up as an example. I was facetiously criticizing Tanner's...standards, I guess. As always happens on this site, my chance remark was blown into a page's worth of argument.

My curiosity is this; do you think that the movie is less creative because of Tsukatu's arguments?

No. The two are unrelated. I do agree that the movie is ridiculous, but ridiculous things can be creative--this movie is, imo, not.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Face/Off is a stupid movie. Needless to say, the plot is unique and I'll watch the movie again because it is filmed, acted and written very creatively.

Haven't seen it, but, to start another argument, I dislike Cage's acting.

To quickly reply to the rest of your post due to lack of time, I do not think District 9 was that good. When I said it was creative, I meant in the sense that it didn't redo the old humans vs. aliens thing.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

To clarify:
In my mind, the discussion about fairy tales and Pan's Labyrinth are a tangent. I didn't think that it was related to the discussion of District 9, nor do I think it has become so except in so far that it's been mentioned that it's unrelated.

If neither of you can appreciate the appeal of a fairy tale then it's this conversation that is monumentally stupid. Saying that fairy tales are universally stupid is the same as any other genre-bashing. Rock isn't inherently better than hiphop. Serious dramas aren't inherently better than action blockbusters. Baroque isn't inherently better than Romantic. Modern fiction isn't inherently better than fairy tale. To say so is absurd.

Heh, well, I never said that modern fiction can't be as bad as a fairy tale. Take DOOM: The Repercussions of Evil, for example. I didn't say that anything is better than fairy tales; I said that fairy tales suck. Anything else is free to suck as much or more.
But I still think that condemning fairy tales in general is totally fair. It's a small subset of fiction, so I don't think the comparison to something so broad as an entire genre of music or style of architecture is accurate. It's much more specific than that. The Fairy Tale subgenre of fiction isn't rock, but rock performed with sides of beef instead of instruments. It isn't drama, but drama focused on the protagonist's flatulence problem. It isn't Baroque, but Baroque implemented by 9-year old builders.
I have never seen a fairy tale from which I can take away something positive. Every one of them is about randomly stumbling onto undeserved power, often while behaving irrationally or impractically, and having a male figure in a position of ultimate power who has an inexplicable and inordinate amount of interest in you solve all your problems for you while you sit aside and watch. I have little sisters, so I am well acquainted with the genre, and I believe myself thus qualified to say that it sucks.

[SlappyMcGee]

First of all, @Tsukatu (we could use a tagging system!): Most of the fairy tales I've read have very morbid peculiar endings. I don't know which ones you are referring to.

And @flagmyidol: So, I'm going to drop Pan's Labyrinth, which was a creative film by most standards and has been seen by such by many, many people, and go back to District 9. What Tanner initially said and what you failed to respond to because you wanted to talk about PL was that the movie isn't creative in the way it deals with aliens and humans. And you went as far as to criticize this decade in Hollywood as being generic and unable to tackle these issues. I think you should first and foremost wait until two months or so from now when I put up the "Best of X" thread, and we analyze the 00's. Because there have been many thought-provoking good ideas in films this last decade, and still many that deal with this specific subject. Hell, Men In Black dealt with this specific subject. It's not an intelligent film, but it is a direct example of why this concept isn't the most original thing. If I were to give the movie anything, it would be that it focuses on this concept that is usually lightly satirized in most films, but I think that the movie proves the concept is not strong enough to withhold such scrutiny.

[otters~1]

And @flagmyidol: So, I'm going to drop Pan's Labyrinth, which was a creative film by most standards and has been seen by such by many, many people, and go back to District 9. What Tanner initially said and what you failed to respond to because you wanted to talk about PL was that the movie isn't creative in the way it deals with aliens and humans. And you went as far as to criticize this decade in Hollywood as being generic and unable to tackle these issues. I think you should first and foremost wait until two months or so from now when I put up the "Best of X" thread, and we analyze the 00's. Because there have been many thought-provoking good ideas in films this last decade, and still many that deal with this specific subject. Hell, Men In Black dealt with this specific subject. It's not an intelligent film, but it is a direct example of why this concept isn't the most original thing. If I were to give the movie anything, it would be that it focuses on this concept that is usually lightly satirized in most films, but I think that the movie proves the concept is not strong enough to withhold such scrutiny.

I give the District 9 people props for trying, then. The Men In Black series isn't quite the same--the aliens are the aggressors in the end (as usual), if I recall correctly. In D9, humans are basically the bad guys (or, at least, the only negative actions of the aliens are ones that any and all repressed and imprisoned people eventually turn to; raiding and rioting). Furthermore, the part the aliens play is very nearly the same as that of Apartheid-ridden Africans just a few years ago. The whole movie is basically an allegory for Apartheid, with aliens thrown in to make it a box-office winner. I sort of see Hollywood's influence there.

As for the grand debate over the best movies and such of this decade, I can't wait!

[Tanner]

I have never seen a fairy tale from which I can take away something positive. Every one of them is about randomly stumbling onto undeserved power, often while behaving irrationally or impractically, and having a male figure in a position of ultimate power who has an inexplicable and inordinate amount of interest in you solve all your problems for you while you sit aside and watch. I have little sisters, so I am well acquainted with the genre, and I believe myself thus qualified to say that it sucks.

Really? Because Rumpelstiltskin seems like the kind of thing that would really appeal to you. The antagonist does the protagonist a favour in return for the promise of goods or services returned at a later date. The protagonist later reneges on the deal and instead proceeds to manipulate the antagonist through underhandedness and subterfuge. Just so that I can understand better what we're talking about, what do you take issue with in the fairy tale, particularly.

I give the District 9 people props for trying, then. The Men In Black series isn't quite the same--the aliens are the aggressors in the end (as usual), if I recall correctly. In D9, humans are basically the bad guys (or, at least, the only negative actions of the aliens are ones that any and all repressed and imprisoned people eventually turn to; raiding and rioting). Furthermore, the part the aliens play is very nearly the same as that of Apartheid-ridden Africans just a few years ago. The whole movie is basically an allegory for Apartheid, with aliens thrown in to make it a box-office winner. I sort of see Hollywood's influence there.

Oh yes! Is so new! Is so special!

As for films where the marginalized minority are the good guys and the plebeian masses are the bad guys, well, gosh, I couldn't find a list. Could be because there are so fucking many of them.

[otters~1]

Tanner, none of those movies was an allegory involving aliens.

[SlappyMcGee]

Tanner, none of those movies was an allegory involving aliens.

I like this line a lot, mostly because I'm genuinely unsure of the level of seriousness here.