Cannabis

[Kablizzy]

Really?

Yes. You're up to 17,400%, by my count.

[blue_tetris]

The business angle:

In California, where marijuana has been decriminalized, the consumption of marijuana has not been seen to go up. Most studies show that it has remained the same or gone down. This means that the demand for marijuana has remained constant. Possessing with an intent to sell is still illegal, so supply hasn't gone up either.

In that case that marijuana's sale becomes legal, the supply would either stay the same or go up. In either case, the price should go down as supply outweighs demand for the item.

However, the price likely would not go down too much. Marijuana, like most other items that people use frequently and associate with a culture or habit, is highly inelastic. That means that a decrease in price would not yield a higher demand, so sellers would be at no advantage to lower the price--the consumer base would still purchase the product at the higher cost.

Jean-Luc is right. All of the rest of that money is already in the economy. And any excise tax leveled against marijuana would likely not have a huge effect on the demand of the product, again, because of its elasticity.

When it comes to economic models, tax is viewed as the amount of quantity-demanded revenue that is removed from the market economy. So, any tax is essentially "lost money" from the economy which would go to funding the Ad Council's next commercial that confuses marijuana culture with alcohol culture in hopes that kids will hate marijuana but remain indifferent about drinking.



But, yeah, the marijuana industry isn't a big issue in America's economy. When a housing official sleeps in for an extra two hours one Monday, he wastes more money than the entire marijuana industry would make in that period of time.

I dunno why you guys are discussing the fate of the marijuana market, anyhow, though. Marijuana's legality is a purely social issue and legalizing it would have immediate effects on individual liberty. Surely legitimizing the business would distance marijuana from drug culture in general, which is filled with violent crime. Back during the prohibition, the alcohol industry used Tommy guns and kneecapped elderly dudes because that was the only way to conduct business. Legitimacy in any business helps prevent violent crimes that could result from doing business.

In sum: Legalizing marijuana is not a means to an end. If you're for legalizing marijuana, stop saying it's the panacea. It ain't gonna fix the world. It's just another substance people use to enjoy themselves--a luxury among many others that is as safe as (if not moreso than) other things like it. There's no reason it should be illegal.

[mintnut]

What would be the point in legalising? It's still easily accessible, and it's cooler if it's illegal...

My views on the actual drug:

Cannabis is nice, and mintnut approves.

[jean-luc]

Whoa.

Did no one notice how Jean-Luc was off by a factor of a thousand!?

Lets look at an individual state case study to figure out how we could actually make some money off of this:
California produces an estimated US$13.8 million in marijuana (Gettman 11). The revenue there, assuming California's own beer tax rate be applied to marijuana, would be just US$334k, which is insubstantial - it's certainly not going to end any economic crises.

California produces an estimate of $13.8 billion each year. The tables were in thousands of dollars, so I could see how that could be confusing. So the actual state revenue would be $330 million, assuming the same tax on beer applies to the tax on weed, although I'm not sure that's a valid assumption. Given marijuana's less legitimate social status relative to alcohol, I would think a tax that is comparable to that of hard alcohol would be instated. I don't feel like checking to see what the tax on hard alcohol is, but I remember (perhaps incorrectly) that it's about twice the tax on beer and wine, so your original estimate could be off by as much as a factor of 2,000.

I mean, this is still less than 1% of California's current debt, but it's not nearly as insignificant as you had assumed.

Whoah. I fail at math. Sorry about my powers-of-ten failure.
I thought about using the rate for hard alcohol, which is higher, but decided not to. I figured (knowing our government, perhaps incorrectly) that taxation would be based on social impact. Marijuana is clearly demonstrated to be less harmful to society than marijuana.

The thing with using California as an example for this is that the supply of marijuana is more or less maximized there already. It's unlikely that sales would increase with legalization because everyone who wants to smoke and has money can buy weed, pretty much. On the other hand, there are plenty of states where, for whatever reason, it is difficult to find marijuana, and even more difficult to find high a quality specimen. It's in states like these where a large marijuana corporation could sell some "dank-ass dro" in a place where it hasn't been introduced earlier, and it's in states like these where I think one would see the most dramatic increase in sales revenue as a result of legalization.

The legalization of marijuana would result in an evening out in supply, and thus price. I chose California as a specimen because I think that due to the size of California's population, and the societal tendencies of that population, California currently has and will continue to have the largest volume in sales. The most significant revenue from taxation of marijuana would thus be in California. Remember that it is total revenue that is significant, not increase.

[scythe]

there's US$35.8 billion in marijuana production

California produces an estimated US$13.8 million in marijuana (Gettman 11).

I see a glaring Contra Diction. Isn't something like a quarter of all marijuana grown in the US grown in California? That last number seems ridiculously tiny.

I like this analysis better. NORML is of course going to be overenthusiastic, so we might assume they've overestimated by around 50% -- giving a total gain of about 7 billion/year. For the coming fiscal year, California's budget deficit is estimated at about $28 billion. 7 billion / 28 billion = 25%; in conclusion, the legalization and taxation of cannabis could significantly reduce California's budget deficit.

A much kinder estimate of California's deficit for the coming fiscal year is presented here. I doubt the debt is as small as $1 billion, but given that the previous estimate comes from a rather libertarian anti-government-spending group, there's a definite possibility it was overestimated.

EDIT: I see the "pay off the debt crowd" is having fun comparing per year amounts with static amounts. Nobody in their right mind would claim that anything would pay off California's debt in a year. In fact, if the current California budget were on track to pay off their debt in a year, I'd say their budget was insane and they should put that money to better use. The key is a gradual repayment of the debt on a reasonable timescale, not trying to eliminate it all at once.

[mintnut]

What would be the point in legalising? It's still easily accessible, and it's cooler if it's illegal...

My views on the actual drug:

Cannabis is nice, and mintnut approves.

A few good reasons would be:
1. People who are, according to you, doing nothing wrong are going to prison. Something doesn't add up here. Legalization would keep non-violent drug users out of our prison system, which is currently overburdened as it is.
2. Roughly 10% of the weed produced in the U.S. is stolen from the people who grow it. If they're doing nothing wrong, then the U.S. government is stealing billions of dollars of someone else's plant.
3. There's no good way to resolve conflict between competitors on the black market. The result is unnecessary violence.

1. I don't know about America, but here in blighty, possession of cannabis very rarely results in any kind of prison sentence, I've been caught smoking in public with a group of friends and we got nothing more than a slap on the wrist - the pigs took our names and addresses and left.
2. I don't understand this point, but whatever you're saying, 10% appears to be quite a low figure.
3. Being only a user and not involved in dealing or trafficking, I have seen no evidence to back up this violence you claim.

But yeah, you make some valid points...

[Atilla]

there's US$35.8 billion in marijuana production

California produces an estimated US$13.8 million in marijuana (Gettman 11).

I see a glaring Contra Diction. Isn't something like a quarter of all marijuana grown in the US grown in California? That last number seems ridiculously tiny.

We've already established that it was supposed to be US$13.8 billion. Read all the recent posts before replying next time, please.

[Stardeash]

I think it's bad in general.

[Tanner]

Are there any states where marijuana has been decriminalized? It hasn't been legalized in Canada but at least here, if you're caught with a small amount for personal use, there's no problem.

[kai]

I'd like to hear thoughts on legalization, age restrictions, or if you find it disgusting and immoral. Or anything else.

Here's a summarized version of my thoughts to jumpstart discussion:
I'd love to see it legalized mostly because of economic reasons— cannabis is a huge industry, and if it was manufactured and taxed, who knows? It could give our economy a little kick. I think that 18 years is a fair buying age, as it's the same as cigarettes, but I could get behind 21 because both cannabis and alcohol are mind-altering substances. This would make turning 21 one hell of a party.
Looking at health, legalization would be nice because it's hard to find research about cannabis that isn't biased one way or another. I've heard all sorts of claims, like how THC can cure cancer— wouldn't that be great? Who knows if it's true? I was under the impression that cancer can be caused by smoking it. Cannabis can have negative effects, like memory loss, but I know this through personal experience and word on the street. These are not good sources.
My fear of legalization would be that cannabis would be processed like cigarettes and filled with nicotine and other stuff that gets you hooked. Worse than potential health detriments that wouldn't be there in pure cannabis, addiction would be really bad— a smoke break during work hours would be bad news. It's probably not a good idea for manual laborers to jackhammer the street when they're really distracted and find their jackhammer UNBELIEVABLY FUNNY.

EDIT: By the way, if cannabis was legalized, I personally would have very little intention of smoking.

What say you?

first i want to say that im a little iffy on making it legal. i smoke pot. alot in fact. but who will get the rights to it if its legalized? most likely the tobacco industries, and THATS my biggest fear. maybe if they legalize growing it as well i could get behind that. my birth mom says thats what they're gonna do in california soon, make it lega to grow, smoke and buy with a medical mary jane card (which is easy to get). i just dont want to see it get raped by the tobacco industries with thier cyanide filters and all that other crap.

i agree that certain rules and guidelines should apply, like driving and using heavy machinery would have limits/prohibited to do so while high. and as for weed giving you cancer thats absolutey bogus. maybe the tobacco leaf people use to wrap it up with (eg. vanilla dutch master.... my personal favorite. i hate those flavored wraps, i want to taste the weed not the cigar and vanilla dutches are like blunt-lite) but other then that it just knocks off braincells... but hey so does booze and its legal. also kills you liver and kidneys >_> .

i think the legal age should be 18, or maybe 16 with parental consent. 21? no fucking way. you can give yourself cancer but not the munchies? you can go to war but you cant go to mars? bull. and as for smoking on the job well, with manual and repetitive labor i found that a little puff to get a small buzz helps a loooooot to get thru and still do a good job.... helps the time pass quicker and stress level stay ok. im not saying get blazed out ur mind but hit it and quit it and light that sucker up later after work.

but the bottom line is YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT AT ALL!!! it was put on this earth for everyone ffs, to smoke and ease the stress of our lives. a plant to bring together nations. ... that last part was quoted from the bible, btw. dont have my Pot Culture book with me so i cant tell you exactly which part but it does say it, and gets mentioned a few times more. hell the number one stoner rule is to always share ffs... unless you only have enough for yourself.

[blue_tetris]

Are there any states where marijuana has been decriminalized? It hasn't been legalized in Canada but at least here, if you're caught with a small amount for personal use, there's no problem.

Yes. It's decriminalized in California and, I think, Ohio. Maybe some other states.

They just don't care to police marijuana there, because it doesn't suffice any quotas for the cops. They pay attention to violent crimes, instead.

[capt_weasle]

but the bottom line is YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT AT ALL!!! it was put on this earth for everyone ffs, to smoke and ease the stress of our lives. a plant to bring together nations. ... that last part was quoted from the bible, btw. dont have my Pot Culture book with me so i cant tell you exactly which part but it does say it, and gets mentioned a few times more. hell the number one stoner rule is to always share ffs... unless you only have enough for yourself.

Ahaha, haha, hm. You could make the argument that most things are "put on this earth for everyone," but that in no way makes any reason to make it free. Sure, you want it to be free, but it won't ever be. The world doesn't work that way.

[Tanner]

first i want to say that im a little iffy on making it legal. i smoke pot. alot in fact. but who will get the rights to it if its legalized? most likely the tobacco industries, and THATS my biggest fear. maybe if they legalize growing it as well i could get behind that. my birth mom says thats what they're gonna do in california soon, make it lega to grow, smoke and buy with a medical mary jane card (which is easy to get). i just dont want to see it get raped by the tobacco industries with thier cyanide filters and all that other crap.

i agree that certain rules and guidelines should apply, like driving and using heavy machinery would have limits/prohibited to do so while high. and as for weed giving you cancer thats absolutey bogus. maybe the tobacco leaf people use to wrap it up with (eg. vanilla dutch master.... my personal favorite. i hate those flavored wraps, i want to taste the weed not the cigar and vanilla dutches are like blunt-lite) but other then that it just knocks off braincells... but hey so does booze and its legal. also kills you liver and kidneys >_> .

i think the legal age should be 18, or maybe 16 with parental consent. 21? no fucking way. you can give yourself cancer but not the munchies? you can go to war but you cant go to mars? bull. and as for smoking on the job well, with manual and repetitive labor i found that a little puff to get a small buzz helps a loooooot to get thru and still do a good job.... helps the time pass quicker and stress level stay ok. im not saying get blazed out ur mind but hit it and quit it and light that sucker up later after work.

but the bottom line is YOU SHOULDNT HAVE TO PAY FOR IT AT ALL!!! it was put on this earth for everyone ffs, to smoke and ease the stress of our lives. a plant to bring together nations. ... that last part was quoted from the bible, btw. dont have my Pot Culture book with me so i cant tell you exactly which part but it does say it, and gets mentioned a few times more. hell the number one stoner rule is to always share ffs... unless you only have enough for yourself.

Things like this post are the reason that marijuana has such a stigma attached to it.

[Clovic]

"Ahaha, haha, hm. You could make the argument that most things are "put on this earth for everyone," but that in no way makes any reason to make it free. Sure, you want it to be free, but it won't ever be. The world doesn't work that way."

Haha, you're so wrong.

You gotta say more than that if you're gonna bash him Tanner, he raises some pretty good points.

How is going to work under an opiate painkiller to ease chronic pain so that you can be productive any different than smoking a bowl to ease your acute anxiety so that you can be productive?

As for it being free, it's about as free as tomatoes and mint, just gotta be self-sufficient. It's so stupid that it's been regulated and stigmatized for no reason. I am really excited about the recent legislation of the past year or so and on the horizon. Cheers.

[Studebacher Hoch]

To frame this, I don't smoke, 'cause it's boring.

How is going to work under an opiate painkiller to ease chronic pain so that you can be productive any different than smoking a bowl to ease your acute anxiety so that you can be productive?

The difference is that one brings in billions of dollars for criminals in suits, and the other brings in billions of dollars for criminals in SNITCHES GET STITCHES t-shirts and Kobe jerseys.

This isn't a simple issue, where you can just say you want pot to be legal because you smoke it it's no more harmful than legal drugs/pharmaceuticals and that social stigma is the only reason it's illegal. The reason that pot is illegal most places is not because of any social reason - don't forget, the Summer of Love generation is the one running the world right now. If any group of old men were going to legalize weed, it would be this group of old men. It's a simple numbers game - weed as a commodity doesn't work, because it would cost too much to grow versus what it would sell for, and would take away valuable market share from the much more profitable alcohol industry. Weed as medicine would be too difficult for the health-care industry to regulate (i.e. profit off of).

To get to the point... I would like to see weed legalized. I live in Canada, so that's practically true, anyway. It's a holistic problem - fix society and you fix all of societies problems, including things like criminalization of marijuana. Get read of the corrupt health-care industry. Fix free-market capitalism. Fix the consumerist culture of people who only care about the final profit margins and you'll get your weed, and a whole lot of other things on the side. To make this issue simply about the legal status of a drug is short-sighted as hell, and, furthmore, makes you come off as a total potheid.

[capt_weasle]

As for it being free, it's about as free as tomatoes and mint, just gotta be self-sufficient. It's so stupid that it's been regulated and stigmatized for no reason. I am really excited about the recent legislation of the past year or so and on the horizon. Cheers.

Sure you could grow it in your backyard and it would technically be free, but I meant that that won't stop anyone else from trying to sell it.

[scythe]

has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like? has anyone really been far even as decided to use even go want to do look more like?

Things like this post are the reason that marijuana has such a stigma attached to it.

Seriously. It's not a magic plant, it's just a plant.

Also, marijuana is decriminalized in around 13 or 14 states at last count. California's legislature started voting Friday on whether to legalize recreational marijuana. I suppose we'll see some coverage either way, but I really, really doubt it will happen.

[Clovic]

"Seriously. It's not a magic plant, it's just a plant."

That seriously depends on your defintion of magic. When you suffer from severe anxiety and paranoia among other things, and this is the only thing that helps gain release from that constant pounding of negative emotions, then yes, I would say it is a magic plant.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder my friend.

[capt_weasle]

That seriously depends on your defintion of magic. When you suffer from severe anxiety and paranoia among other things, and this is the only thing that helps gain release from that constant pounding of negative emotions, then yes, I would say it is a magic plant.

There's this wonderful little thing we like to call medicine, which takes care of ailments such as anxiety and paranoia. Subscribing marijuana to relieve that is like handing out porn magazines to people at the doctor's office who come in with anxiety. It might reduce stress but things like anxiety should be taken care of through actual medicine, not something that temporarily reduces the symptoms.

[capt_weasle]

capt_weasel:
1. Explain the difference between "medicine" for anxiety and "something that temporarily reduces the symptoms." I feel like you don't get how anxiety medications work. My best friend, for example, takes Xanax for his anxiety disorder. Temporary reduction of symptoms is actually the only thing his medication does. If THC or some cannabinoid derivative can be shown in clinical trials to work as an anti-anxiety medication, I think there's a fairly good chance that it would be healthier than most benzodiazapines anyway.

2. Why is masturbation a bad way to relieve stress?

Sorry, I did get a little carried away with what I was trying to say. I'm not very good at putting thoughts into sentences quickly. Anyway, more along what I was trying to get at was the connotation of cannabis being "magical" and a sure-fire way to relieve anxiety and paranoia. Yes, the majority of medicine is simply just to offer reduction of symptoms, but if cannabis was as great as many of its proponents say it is, I'm sure it would have been legalized or put into mainstream medicine much earlier. Clovic just made it seem as though taking a couple puffs of it would work just as well as medicine, and I would have to disagree with that, because smoking isn't entirely beneficial, and it would be much better in pill-form (or something other than smoking?) than how it is regularly taken in. But at that point it wouldn't really be much more than, you know, medicine. It's like taking alcohol and making it into a pill, attempting to take away the negative side effects. Also, the porn aside was just me trying to make a comparison, not necessarily saying that masturbation was a bad way to relieve stress. All in all I think that if it were to be legalized, I would hope that cannabis should go through clinical tests and be produced in a way that removes the necessity of it being smoked (though I a) don't know if that's possible and b) am not a doctor so I'm just assuming it would be better to take the smoking part out). I say this because doctors don't prescribe alcohol to illness, so it wouldn't make sense to me to do the same with marijuana. But I haven't looked too much into this, so whatever.

[Clovic]

There's this wonderful little thing we like to call medicine, which takes care of ailments such as anxiety and paranoia. Subscribing marijuana to relieve that is like handing out porn magazines to people at the doctor's office who come in with anxiety. It might reduce stress but things like anxiety should be taken care of through actual medicine, not something that temporarily reduces the symptoms.

Demonz took care of that very nicely.

That's not magic, that's just how psychoactive drugs work. I agree that pot can have therapeutic effects for some users, but I don't see a) how this is magic and b) why weed is the only thing that can be used to counteract anxiety or paranoia.

Well, I agree with you, but as I said, it depends on perspective. In all honesty, I hate taking manufactured medicines, the only pills I will take are those for my cluster headaches (Doesn't even really help) and when I cannot breath due to my allergies. I don't want to be taking benzos and SSRI's as well, so weed is awesome. No additives, no unknown chemicals, no drug companies, and no random pills to fix something that something more natural can fix even better.

I never said it was the only thing to counteract those things, but when it is the /best/ and most effective substance to relieve these ailments, then I think that needs to be noted.

Yes, the majority of medicine is simply just to offer reduction of symptoms, but if cannabis was as great as many of its proponents say it is, I'm sure it would have been legalized or put into mainstream medicine much earlier.

Not would have, but should have, and that is why it is a problem.

Clovic just made it seem as though taking a couple puffs of it would work just as well as medicine, and I would have to disagree with that, because smoking isn't entirely beneficial, and it would be much better in pill-form (or something other than smoking?) than how it is regularly taken in

Well, it isn't just as well as medicine, it IS medicine. The first two formal definitions of medicine are as follows:

-any substance or substances used in treating disease or illness; medicament; remedy.
-the art or science of restoring or preserving health or due physical condition, as by means of drugs, surgical operations or appliances, or manipulations: often divided into medicine proper, surgery, and obstetrics.

Also, how it is regularly taken in (smoking) helps it kick in instantly, and as Demonz pointed out, instant relief really is the best thing for anxiety, you need it right then, you don't have time for a pill to be digested and metabolized. Smoking works instantly. It isn't just because that's the way it is, there's a method to why it's the natural form.

Why do you seem to think that something cannot be a medicine just because it is smoked? That is just a method of administration, it is no different than swallowing a pill, shoving something up your ass, or having something injected IV or IM.

[kai]

That seriously depends on your defintion of magic. When you suffer from severe anxiety and paranoia among other things, and this is the only thing that helps gain release from that constant pounding of negative emotions, then yes, I would say it is a magic plant.

There's this wonderful little thing we like to call medicine, which takes care of ailments such as anxiety and paranoia. Subscribing marijuana to relieve that is like handing out porn magazines to people at the doctor's office who come in with anxiety. It might reduce stress but things like anxiety should be taken care of through actual medicine, not something that temporarily reduces the symptoms.

i once was put on some meds for my ADHD, and it made my face contort for 30 mins. made my tongue go in the back of my throat and my eyes roll back.

now, i want you to find a case where weed has done that to someone. weed IS a medicine, and the side effects are hungry, happy, and sleepy.

exp:
1. my birth mother has had MS since 1990. currently she isnt taking any medication except ganja and shes doing just fine, better then some people her age with MS. muuuch better (i had a land lady that was younger with MS and she could barely move)

2. with me, it helps me relax at the end of the day. i used to be on anti depressants and a whole bunch of other meds but a few months after i started smoking pot, i found that i didnt need the meds anymore. i didnt even have any unbalances from just straight up stopping them.

3. it has been proven that weed (in some cases), helps people with ADD focus more. but thats just the latest in a whole future of medical purposes for weed.

4. it helps with bipolarism. live with my roomie for a year, then another year without him stoned. youll see my point, if he hasnt killed you in year 2.

and stfu tanner. jeesus, your not even trying to make a point anymore. your just trolling and bashing for your own fucking amusement. and guess what? nobody thinks its funny but you. and i wasnt stoned making that post, im typing from a laptop and i never really cared about grammar to fucking begin with.

so fuck off.

and yes, weed should be free. just like crabgrass and dandelions. fuck the way it works in the "real world", cause honestly it isnt working to well anymore.

get you heads out of whatever orifice you have them stuck in and look at the facts. if it isnt for you, then fine! thats ok! that means your doing pretty well for yourself!

just stop bashing it. stoners are no different from drunks.... except that stoners dont get high and beat thier wives (side effect may occur: hungry, happy, sleepy). but again, which ones legal and which isnt?

EDIT: and after re-reading clovics post, drugs always meant human intervention to me. yeah, the definition says otherwise, but im talking about labeling a drug in a negative tone of voice (ie. crack, meth, heroine). these are drugs that you hear about people OD'ing off of all the time. either a heroine overdose or some simple Tylenol, it doesnt matter.

my point is, aside from all the BS commercials, weed has nothing but good to offer the masses. and its illegal because there is no profit to be made by the gov, there is no way to regulate it.

[SlappyMcGee]

nobody thinks its funny but you.

I thought it was funny.

Relevant, too.

[capt_weasle]

Why do you seem to think that something cannot be a medicine just because it is smoked? That is just a method of administration, it is no different than swallowing a pill, shoving something up your ass, or having something injected IV or IM.

I don't think it isn't a medicine because it is smoked, I just don't think smoking would be the best way to administer it. As demonz pointed out, vaporization seems preferable.

Kai, demonz already took care of my argument, I don't really have anything else to say. Also, calm down man. The world isn't out to get you. Tanner said one line, and you freak out on him. Additionally, I don't get your reasoning against all of his "bashing" by bashing him back.

[kai]

nobody thinks its funny but you.

I thought it was funny.

Relevant, too.

vote SlappyMcGee for most annoying moderator!!!