N v2.0 Public Beta

[bugz]

Click here.

More info on their blog.

Jumping in between "8" tiles kills you? (spoiler)

[aids]

And definitely post any bugs. For me:

• The normal door door switches don't lighten when activated.
• Controls are still really wonky. Not ever key works.
• Exit has a weird black line.
• Demo replay key?
• The ninja isn't centered with its starting position.
• Corner-shoves (ceiling walljumping) which you know of.

[Paradox]

Continuing a game from the 'resume last game' button takes you back to the main menu when you finish the episode

If you finish a level but don't press 'z' to load the next level & refresh the page the 'resume last game' button doesn't take you to the next map

When walking up '3' tiles (7-1) the ninja bounces a considerable amount when you run into the wall

No matter what the 'jump' button is you still have to press 'z' to finish & start a level

The ninja starts on the left side of the grid square it's in… not really a bug… just looks strange

Jumping on rising thwups (15-1) is a very weak jump

Some of the key settings are linked to each other (UI)
- Player 1 suicide key & Player 2 jump & suicide key
- Player 1 jump key & pause key

The text at the bottom of the screen doesn't scroll when you enter two player mode under levels

You can play an episode you haven't unlocked by clicking it but after you finish it you're taken back to the main menu, it looks like a normal episode with the number showing

[Cheez]

Cheez's list of possible bugs (to be expanded upon):

• Biggest problem for me: locked door switches not turning transparent when unlocked.
  Walljumping off of a backwards-moving thwump causes the player to jump straight up, as opposed to in the direction the thwump is moving.
  When the sound plays as a locked door is unlocked, if another door is unlocked, its sound will not play.
  If a rocket is fired at the same time that another rocket explodes, the sound will not play for the entire time the rocket is alive.
  Pretty sure this gold is unobtainable (spoiler):

  

  Walljumping between mines one space wide is really really easy now. I can pull it off nearly every time with no trouble.

[otters~1]

suicide is k no matter what i doooooo

[bugz]

Pretty sure this gold is unobtainable

It's obtainable (spoiler)

[Cheez]

Pretty sure this gold is unobtainable

It's obtainable (spoiler)

I don't think the far left one is, though. :|

[29403]

Awesome. The Simpsons references are still there. :D

Great level design in that awesome unpretentious Metanet style.

[ska]

Pretty sure this gold is unobtainable

It's obtainable (spoiler)

I don't think the far left one is, though. :|

Confirmed that it is possible to get all of that gold using bugz's method, except it is extremely hard... I got it jumping really close to the angled tile, but man, that seems to be the hardest piece in the game, and I suspect highscorers will have some problems getting that piece consistently...

From the completion thread:

I'm going to repeat a couple of things raif said, so sorry in advance

Aside from the bugs that were made public in the release, here are my own thoughts.

pros:
improved bounceblocks (I think consistency is more important than the buggy old ones, and double jumps are still possible
wall jumping on one ways. :D
one way glitch removed
great levels
gauss turrets seems more consistent, although I found it a little harder which is good imo.
No "bad" maps.
NO FUCKING STUTTERING!

cons:
you don't die on mines embedded at the bottom of two 1 tiles (45 degree angle) (forget the level, sorry)
no thwump boosts while it moves up OR sideways which may be more correct in pure physics terms, but then again, most people I know can't jump up five times their own height ;).
die from enemies after completion (I like that you can land on one ways now though after completion.)
sound from gold everything lags a little.
gold is not always collected on overlap, especially when clumped or moving fast.
Not really any 'puzzle maps' or much enemy variety.
I think there was only one trap door in the whole game that I could recall... Not necessarily a bad thing though.. just.. odd.
One of the levels which was completely symmetrical except for one tile which kind of irked the OCD side of me.. think it was around the mid 40s.
Lot of recycled 1.4 maps, don't mind seeing them again, especially when modified such as the beautifully reworked 99-4

Thanks for the great game Mare and Raigan. Looking forward to the proper release and happy 2013!!

[RandomDigits]

This isn't a bug. However, in the Story, it should be spelt cognitive, not cognative

After beating the first column I went back to episode three in search of a wall of mines to try jumping between. Unfortunately, I don't remember what I did precisely before playing it. I do know that I looked at the other main menu options like levels and settings and whatnot. But when I pressed jump to start, I pressed no arrow key, yet my ninja started running to the right on its own. This went on for maybe twenty seconds and then suddenly I could properly control the ninja. I hope my description is clear enough to understand. If it happens again I'll try to pay more attention to how it happened :S

As far as lag, I find as soon as there are maybe more than 6 or 8 drones, I start to notice lag, especially at the start of the level. I've also had a one second freeze (not lag, freeze) while dodging two rockets (on 92-3). Oh, and I'm using Mac OS 10.6.8 on a MacBook Pro.

EDIT: So it did the running to the right thing again. It was after I had left that tab to go on this tab. I went back and selected an episode, and it thinks I'm pressing the right arrow. This keeps going even dying multiple times. It stops once I press right and let go.

And also I can push through down-facing oneways using a thwump. (Damn I shouldn't have said anything. I liked this cheat ;p)

[unoriginal name]

that this wasn't a global is fucking shameful

i'm way behind because i was out of internet range for new year's but i intend to catch up

[999_Springs]

Great to see that M&R have something to share with us. Ok, I've played through about a third of it so far and here are some general thoughts (not just bugs):

Most importantly: N v2.0 beta IS FAR TOO EASY. I don't just mean that from the point of view of an accomplished highscorer, but even in comparison to N v1.4. The difficulty is what earned v1.4 its reputation for being such a hard platformer back in 2005. I've noticed a lot of v1.4 levels that have been scaled down to "fit" in the general scope of easy levels in v2, such as 45-3 and 96-4. As far as I can see there are no levels that stand out in particular as being hard, much unlike 88-4 and 83-3 and such like in the original v1.4, or just about everything in the 110s column in NReality (once again, thanks, blue_tetris). The hardest levels I've noticed are 99(5) which is a pretty good remake of 69-4 using rockets, and 48(5) which has a drone gimmick. 88(5) also. Personally I don't get that much satisfaction from beating them. Ska finished the whole game in eight hours, which speaks for itself.

M&R do deserve credit for the design of the easy levels though. I like the sleek minimalistic look which is unmistakably metanet-ish and also the maps seem to "flow" a lot better than the easy maps in 1.4, and they don't have any particularly awkward sections like some maps in 1.4 did. It looks like they're focusing on individual gameplay mechanics, especially with the zap drones in a lot of levels (can't be bothered to recall any), which is a bit puzzle-ish and works really well. M&R really like zap drones. Some of the scaled down remakes of 1.4 levels are good too, like 99(5) for 69-4 and... what's the remake of 99-4 again? 45(5)? can't remember. Now M&R only need to balance out these easy levels with some rage-inducing hard ones. That is exactly what's missing.

The 00s column doesn't highscore well at all, it's mostly short linear maps that are a sequence of simple jumps with an obvious route. The scoreboard on 06(3) will get maxed out within 10 minutes of official release. Not to mention 00(0), which is so much less fun to highscore on than v1.4 00-0, which still has a decent sized spread on the scoreboards after nearly 9 years. Most of the other levels look like good for highscoring, especially the ones with lots of well-placed gold, but see later for what I wrote about tricks.

Local multiplayer: sounds cool, will need time to determine how useful it is.

Tricks: The engine plays really similarly to the contesque thingy. Bounceblocks work very well, no glitches like in 1.4. Double bounceblock jumps are still there, and perpendicular jumps are a lot easier, with no silly slope stuttering. But other tricks are a lot less versatile than v1.4, a bit of a shame. Triples off a slope and wall, as well as long corner jumps, are a lot less consistent. I can't be sure without knowing exactly how the game engine works but sometimes it doesn't seem to consistently give the player a 1 frame window for long corner jumps like it did in 1.4.

Lag: yeah, use firefox. I'm having no problems.

Bugs not already mentioned: The level with the glitch that bugz pointed out is 21(4). Mines seem to be smaller: jumping between mines a tile apart is really easy, like up the wall in 17(2), but also on the floor in 98(5) or whatever that remake of 37-3 was. And you can jump off the corners with mines next to them in 17(1), a remake of 91-1. (Also what is up with sending the drone down the middle at the start right into the speedrun route? seriously?? What the hell?!?) Will edit post when I find more.

Seekers/lasers/chainguns/trap doors/normal doors: Notable by their lack of presence almost everywhere. That's fine if M&R are having trouble coding them, but I'd like to see much more of these in the actual release.

Gauss turrets lose sight of you immediately once you hide, and catch sight of you immediately once you appear, with no delay in either case.

half two a.m need to stop typing and sleep

[EddyMataGallos]

There is a huge glitch guys, levels are ridiculously easy and simple. I wished they wouldnt do what they did in the holiday contesque but they did. You cant imagine how bad that is for the highscoring community, even though its probably much better received for the rest of the players and community in general. I mean, we were angry because they included 59-0 in the game because it was easily maxable, well, what about now guys?

I have only gone through the first 2 episodes and I can already gauge 80 levels being maxed in the future and 200 of them being framewars, come on dudes. Even more, im going to make a list of likely-maxable levels so in the future, when the highscoring mode is released, I can hurry the fuck up to max them. Lets start with the first episodes, I bet a million bucks these levels are gonna end up maxed: 0-0, 0-1, 0-3, 1-1, 1-2, 2-0?, 2-1, 2-3, 3-3, 5-0, 6-2, 7-2, (note that im using the old notation, starting from 0).

I agree with zaps, what made N special, among other things, was the ultrahard experience it was beating it and then highscoring it. That shouldnt have been lost, I mean, its really easy now, too mainstream platformer. Probably they wanted to aim for a bigger public. I dont agree with this, but meh, I will still play it like crazy and you all will, and you know it. Luckily for us we are here to max the levels before its imposible to get on them.

Do not take this as a fully negative critic, Im really glad a new version has been published and im definitely looking forward to the final release so I can start highscoring. Its just its not gonna be the same, and I know IM sounding like an oldie talking about the past times, and how old metallica was better and then they just sold themselves to a bigger public. Its jsut I think the essence of N was being ultrahard.

[ska]

I guess I was the audience they were after because I like new Metallica.

[mam]

I think the difficulty's fine. Not that I'm saying it's hard, it's just it needs to be easy to attract new players. 48-5 I still have't done because of lag and it being hard without lag anyway. Also 99-5 beat me because the rockets seem to lag me out too, it was just stop-start after playing for a while. Really enjoyed the new physics though, bounceblocks are much better. Also, the 40s is the best column I've done (almost).

EDIT: beat 99-5 first play of the day after failing so hard last night.

[zoasBE]

I apologize for expressing my disappointment with N v2.0 Beta.

I will start writing my personal impression on the general aspects. It seems that the general difficulty level dropped considerably, I must say that I have not yet completed the entire game, but many of the levels look really simple and linear. The appearance of Highscoring seems completely disappeared, because a large percentage of the levels seem to be easily maxe-able now. Many of them have lost such large rooms that existed for improvements and innovations in routes and paths. I can also see an inconsistency in the difficulty progression or in the harmony of gameplay, something like that can be found in the same episode 4 maps really simple and linear initial and a final and fifth map much more extensive, complex and complicated. I remember having complications at many points and at many levels in the first column of N v1.4 and I feel that in this new first column in N v2.0, for example, I have not had any complications, trying to put aside the possible improvements that I may have suffered as a player since then. It seems that these levels had been designed to be completed in one sitting, or something like a marathon because of the low difficulty. This may be interesting, to be played differently or with other intentions, do drag racing and that sort of thing, but I feel that the essence of N, /that frustrating essence game where you have to repeat and repeat each level nauseum to finally complete it, and have that great feeling of satisfaction itself/ is gone, or at least greatly diminished.

I remember the beta released as a Holiday Contesque in which you had to complete 3 columns each with 64 maps in a row, seems that these maps have been designed with that in mind, and personally, I think it would have been better after all designing this new game for this, because at least there had been a change in the gameplay and, or originality or feeling when playing. As with the new that Metanet created, there is really no changes for the better, or possible twists in the 'script' or truly innovative changes to the player in a new version of a great game. If not, until now, many new levels simply easier. This generates me the following questions:
What was the real Metanet intention with this new N v2.0? Is creating a new game engine and correcting bugs and Ninja physics? Nor have I seen new tiles, enemies and possibilities, so why create a new engine? Just to correct the perpendicular jump and bounce-blocks physics? Would it have been better so, as an expansion of 500 maps keeping the old engine?
Honestly, I still have many doubts, and after 8 years, really I see no improvement, or understand the intent.


Improvements that I can easily see:

- Perpendicular Jump perfectly improved.
- Better transition in motion between tiles of obtuse angles.
- Gauss seems really improved and consistent now.
- Landing at one-ways after completing the level.
- Looks like the Ninja not 'scratching' in slopes as happened before.
- Bounce-Blocks seem improved, but I'm not sure if I like.
- Zap Drones now also seem more consistent.

Things that seem to be much worse:

- The thing I really hated is having to press 'z' to start/restart each level (I hope it is only in beta).
- Visually, the golds seem as 'bitten' by the lower right corner.
- Also, mines do not seem regular, the bottom left looks smaller.
- As Aidiera says, a strange black line on Exit when its open.
- The sound, for example in obtaining gold or switches seems that is not adjusted/synchronized.
- I do not know if I really like the new gold counter.
- That the switches do not become transparent after its obtention.
- Aesthetically (tiles and objects) seem less refined and less fluid now.
- The switches also seem to bite in the lower right corner.
- The closed door looks that are not aligned with the tiles.
- The ninja seems to move more fluid, but not sure.
- Hope levels numbering is only to the beta, and maintaining the episodic N numbering essence of 0-00,01,02,03 and 04.


Sorry to be the stupid guy saying this, but I truly believe that there still remains much work, much to polish and refine yet. This version is not even close to the previous one. I really hope that Metanet does a good job, and at least really surprise us with something. Sorry I gave my opinion, and I apologize if it is not the most positive, but I can not be cynical, smile and say it's awesome, I can not, because it is not true.
I really hope to see a lot more polished final product, improved and at least a little better than this.
Cheers!! :)

[29403]

Too easy? I can't get past 4-4/Episode 4 Level 5 D:

[ska]

- The closed door looks that are not aligned with the tiles.

Glad I'm not the only one who is irked by this...

[zoasBE]

Not talked about this in my previous post because I'm assuming they are small errors since the beta.
In the menu interface, there are small mistakes with fonts, not everything is written with the N font, if not, there are some things written with a real ugly and out-placed Times New Roman font, like the 'Volume' word and some others. Also, there are some buttons to return to the 'Main Menu' out of place, or appears to be beyond the scope of the game.

[raigan]

hey,
Thanks everyone for your feedback, it really helps a lot to have all the bugs in one handy thread. (sorry there are so many!)

About the level selection/style: you're right, it's definitely easier than 1.4, and also less suitable for speedruns; there are a few reasons for this, which many of you have correctly guessed.

We tried to make the difficulty curve more like N+ rather than 1.4, so that it's (hopefully) more approachable for new players.

Another big factor is that we both dislike a lot of our 1.4 maps; I guess our tastes have just changed? Having made about 3000 levels over the years, we've gotten better at thinking about "level design" -- a lot of the 1.4 maps seem very amateurish to us now, they're awkward to play (i.e 1-tile gaps don't feel great, many levels are "tricky" rather than difficult) and also (in our opinion) they're ugly compared to the N+ maps.

(However, the problem with "level design" is that that's sort of what's wrong with modern games, they're too polished/simple, so you could definitely argue that the rough edges of the 1.4 maps are better in some ways than our current streamlined style, especially for speed-runs)

IMO all of these things which made us dislike a particular level are more or less the exact same things which make the level good for expert players/speed-runners! It's a hard trade-off.

We realize that this change in style makes a huge difference to expert players, however we were hoping that since highscores are now fully integrated for all user-made maps (or, will be once we fix things), the de-emphasis on the built-in levels as the focus of speed-runs would help compensate for that.

thanks,
Raigan

[RandomDigits]

Hello there,
so far I've only talked about bugs, but here are a few of my thoughts so far on the gameplay in N 2.0 Beta.


These changes are unquestionably improvements:
the new bounceblocks are stellar
perp jumps are nice and smooth now
drones are synchronized
wall-jumps on oneways
the new gold counter

I'm not sure what to think of these changes:
being killed by enemies after reaching the exit
the gauss fix. I kind of liked how the old gauss worked, it made it seem even more like an out-dated weapon
lack of "super-corner-jumps"

I don't like these changes very much:
jumping off of a thwump does not give the ninja any of the thwump's momentum
the level numbering, now there'll be a single tripple-digit loner-episode



I've also got some thoughts on the level/episode/column content, which I'll just touch upon in this post, though I intend to write a more in depth feedback post on the subject in the next few days.

First of all, I think the first few episodes of the 00s column are much better suited to new players. I remember how difficult and scary 1.4's first episode was, and there is not a doubt in my mind that the difficulty curve in the first column is much more friendly to new players. As several high-scorers have already pointed out, however, this has been done by sacrificing a lot of what made these levels good for high-scoring.

Additionally, the difference between NUMA high-scoring, and main-game high-scoring is that there is a finite and un-changing number of levels in the main game. For 7 or 8 years, high-scorers have competed to continually improve their runs on these 500 levels, over and over, finding mind-boggling innovations in the process and doing things beyond anyone's wildest imagination. To the average player, they became something akin to N gods. High-scores for NUMA-levels are already integrated within NReality, which I think most high-scorers use, but still all the serious high-scorers prefer to compete on the main-game levels.

With NUMA highscoring, there are sometimes as many as 50 or more new maps made each day, not all of them good for high-scoring or even for playing in general. This means a lot of time is wasted just to find high-scoring maps with decent possibilities. On top of this the competition is much lower, because the high-scorer-density, if you will, is diluted over some 226000 maps, not 500 levels. In general, it is much harder to find maps on NUMA that have generated a lot of competition, whereas in N, every level has seen such competition, that it can now take hours or days for the most experienced of players just to squeeze out one more frame to reach the top. And it's the amount of competition on main-game levels that makes high-scoring so rewarding and prestigious for high-scorers. If these main-game levels become much less interesting to high-score, and making easily max-able levels is a great way to do that, I guarantee that interest in high-scoring them will diminish very quickly. And if the alternative is user-levels, the high-scoring community will be greatly weakened.

I believe it is possible to make well-polished, easy, and non-"tricky" maps that are nevertheless fun and challenging to high-score, and one of the simplest ways I see, is to make more of them multi-pathed.

I guess I got kind of side-tracked with high-scoring. I'll talk more about the levels and their progression in another post, then. Hopefully by then I'll have completed more than just the first column.

I don't have time to proof-read my post right now, so I hope my arguments are clear enough.

[raigan]

I should have mentioned, the thwump behaviour and the episode/level names are both errors/bugs, not intentional changes.

We'll write more when we're less busy, but it sounds like having better visibility for user-made levels is important (perhaps automatically promoting those with lots of highscores attempts, or allowing users to vote-up maps that are good for speed running).

[Chrdrenkmann]

Has anyone mentioned yet that all drones beside the normal ones are not included much in the new episodes?

I'm at episode 46 right now and so far, I have only seen a few seeker drone maps, three laser drones and only one chaingun drone. On the other hand, there are waaaaaaaaaaaay too many minejumpers and normal zap drone maps. This imbalance of enemies is really dull.

EDIT: O.k., it was mentioned before - together with the lack of normal and trap doors what I've noticed as well.

Seekers/lasers/chainguns/trap doors/normal doors: Notable by their lack of presence almost everywhere. That's fine if M&R are having trouble coding them, but I'd like to see much more of these in the actual release.

[otters~1]

We tried to make the difficulty curve more like N+ rather than 1.4, so that it's (hopefully) more approachable for new players.

I think you guys in this thread should take a long step back before you blame M&R for this. We're about the only audience left for 1.4, but we're not anywhere near being the only possible audience for 2.0.

[Izzy]

Oh man, the potential for 2-player highscores is amazing. Most levels become sort of a 2-man Traveling Salesman Problem. Does player 1 go grab the gold and switch while player 2 stays at the exit, dodging drones? Or do you both coordinate gold-grabbing? Does player 1 bait a laser for player 2 or does he take a rocket to the face so that player 2 can go through a tunnel?

Unfortunately, we'll probably never get van and EMG physically in the same room for this.