The Evil Guide to Mapping

[Evil_Sire]

And compared to atob's guide, this is much more helpfull and better.

Oh I agree. I've always wanted to learn to make an Evil_Sire map.

Edit: Flaming makes babies cry.

[a happy song]

And compared to atob's guide, this is much more helpfull and better.

Oh I agree. I've always wanted to learn to make an Evil_Sire map.

Edit: Happiness and rainbows make babies smile.

Go here
Read these
Sing along.

[Spawn of Yanni]

Okay, friggin' honestly, everybody. Yes, the swearing rules are a little more relaxed here, but trolling and flaming is still trolling and flaming.

There's a lot of this shit going around right now. Just calm yourselves, and if you think you're about to make a stupid post, just step back and deal with whatever problem's happening in a better way. Hell, at least think of an intelligent comeback, or something.

[crescor]

Most of the players that you define 'great' are here from the beginning. It looks like you don't want new players to be good, you just go and break them down. I never said Evil_Sire is great, but he's not awfully bad either.

And yes, I think Evil_Sire's guide is more helpfull, because, frankly said, your guide just sais: 'Mess around with the tiles and objects until you like it.' If someone sais: 'It's better that you place that specific mine over there, because...' then yes, I think it's more helpfull then saying: 'Meh, do what you want..'

[a happy song]

Most of the players that you define 'great' are here from the beginning. It looks like you don't want new players to be good, you just go and break them down. I never said Evil_Sire is great, but he's not awfully bad either.

Right, so who are most of the players I define as great? If you could clear this up for me I'd really appreciate it.

And yes, I think Evil_Sire's guide is more helpfull, because, frankly said, your guide just sais: 'Mess around with the tiles and objects until you like it.' If someone sais: 'It's better that you place that specific mine over there, because...' then yes, I think it's more helpfull then saying: 'Meh, do what you want..'

I'm sorry, but you're not thinking at all.

My guide says (in basic): ask for constructive feedback gather and correlate the data and grow on your own.

Evil_Sire's says: do it my way because other ways are rubbish.

You sure you want to stick with your opinion?

[crescor]

yes, because you don't understand this like I do, or atleast you doesn't look at this as I.
E_S sais what he does when he's making maps, and he try to help the more unexperienced ones to do what he does, because he think it's a good way. He never said people SHOULD follow his guide, but atleast he's offering the opportunity, unlike you, because you are just saying: 'explore fo yourself'.
And I fully agree with you when you say that you should define your own style, but as a fresh mapmaker it's (almost) impossible to define a style, and therefore this is by far the better guide. A guide is too help the unexperienced ones, to give them a good start. Guide's are for non-experienced people, and I never said your guide was bad, but this is more for unexperienced people.
The best would be if you use this guide to start with, and after playing a little while with the mapmaking tools, it's advisable to read yours, so you can create a style.
But as a begginers guide, I stay with my opinion, this one is better.

[a happy song]

But as a begginers guide, I stay with my opinion, this one is better.

Ok, you're going in full circles now without even bothering to apply yourself. I'll try one last time...

Which is the better advice:

A: Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!
B: Here's a colour chart, choose any colour you like and get painting!

[crescor]

B, but you didn't get my last comment.

Let's cut the crap and stop with this discussion, both guides are good, but they differ from opinion.

[crescor]

And on a final note:
It's not because B is the best, that A is bad.
I'm done with this

[MattKestrel]

Green ftw!

Oh, excuse me for interrupting your trolling war. Honestly, each guide has to be taken with a pinch of slat, thats all Im saying.

[a happy song]

And on a final note:
It's not because B is the best, that A is bad.

You're exactly right. A is just bad.

B, but you didn't get my last comment.

Oh, I got yours just fine. It didn't make sense, really, but I can see what you're trying your best to put across.

The real shame is that all the points your championing E_S's guide for are exactly what my guide tells you to do but not just from one obviously flawed source.

Let's cut the crap and stop with this discussion, both guides are good, but they differ from opinion.

Feel free to cut the crap, I've not really got the energy to do this right now anyway :)

[crescor]

I know damn sure what I'm talking about.

A or B, B is best choice, but does that make A bad?

Here:
A: Help your brother
B: Help your brother + a stranger

B is obviously the best. So (in your opinion) A is bad. No-one should therefore help his brother.

(This is a stupid example, but I hope that it makes things clear for you)

[a happy song]

You're right, that is a stupid example.

I was pointing out that, when it comes to creative arts, it's best to take inspiration from many sources and that ignorant opinion will very likely be nothing but detriment.

Your example has absolutely no relation to that point.

[crescor]

But as a begginers guide, I stay with my opinion, this one is better.

Ok, you're going in full circles now without even bothering to apply yourself. I'll try one last time...

Which is the better advice:

A: Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!
B: Here's a colour chart, choose any colour you like and get painting!

It has relation with this.

[Nexx]

In the time it took me to write this, several posts were made, so keep that in mind.

Which is the better advice:

A: Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!
B: Here's a colour chart, choose any colour you like and get painting!

Actually, atob, I think he was pretty clear on that point:

He never said people SHOULD follow his guide, but atleast he's offering the opportunity

E_S's guide isn't totalitarian and final, it's tips about what E_S has generally found to work.

"Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!" is not the tone of E_S's guide, and if you honestly believe that, you should give it a quick once-over again.

And crescor does have a point about this guide being helpful to newcomers.

I think that the reason you have something against guides in general, atob, is simply knowledge of human behavior. That is, people who come to this community and have the creativity, the good taste, and/or the perseverance will eventually find themselves making good maps, while those who don't, won't. No amount of guides will change that. Not to say that guides don't contain information that would be useful to the "good" group of people, but rather that that group of people would learn those things for themselves if they didn't read the guide because they have the inclination (though they could very well learn those things faster by reading the guide). Meanwhile, the "not-so-good" group might learn some things from these guides, but obviously they won't take it to heart that much or else they would be part of the "good" group by definition.

In short, the arc of a mapper's career relies much more on the attitude and behavior of the mapper than what they could learn from guides. Thus, some people shun all guides and just say "learn it all for yourself" knowing that little would be different in a world without guides. (Am I semi-accurate, atob? Or am I just way off in the blue?)

Anyway, it's possible to understand that logic and still like guides, obviously. A good guide can be quite helpful to those who are listening.

[a happy song]

It has relation with this.

Ok, I'll try to make it simpler. I'll merge my two posts a little:

I was pointing out that, when it comes to creative arts, it's best to take inspiration from many sources (B: Here's a colour chart, choose any colour you like and get painting!) and that ignorant opinion (A: Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!) will very likely be nothing but detriment.

With the above examples, even if advice A was given to someone who wanted to paint their house green, they would most likely have considered all of their options before hand.

Ergo: Even if you wanted to paint your house green, taking advice B would lead you to that conclusion but it would also give you the opportunity to consider every option available to you. Your decision here would be all the more valuable.

Clearly here one of the examples of advice is better than the other.

Your examples are too vague. There might be situations where helping your brother alone would be for the best. Your examples don't teach us anything about this discussion.

E_S's guide isn't totalitarian and final, it's tips about what E_S has generally found to work.

He offers totalitarian and final opinions in his guide.

Whereas my guide tells you to ask for people's opinions and correlate them to discover the best way to map. E_S tells us:

-
Lasers are rubbish.

Don't place rockets in the open, only where the player would least expect them.

Gausses are the most versatile enemy.

Floor guards are easy, place them on the floor and you're done.

To use a chaingun well you just have to find a nice, wide open space for them to dominate.

Don't put more than two chain guns in a map because they're ugly.

Don't spam and clutter mines, but I put 100-500 in my mine jumpers.

-

All of the above advice is terrible (and these are only a few examples) and is told to us, not as a matter of opinion, but as fact.

Therefore the guide contains totalitarian connotations (which are bad) and if that's not the intent then the writing is just bad (which also makes the guide of poor quality).

It's clearly awful.

Also, crescor clearly doesn't understand the differences between the kind of detrimental, ignorant opinion found above and the advice to ask for constructive comments from all sources. I would have thought you'd have had more of a chance...

[crescor]

I perfectly understand the difference, and if you say I'm semi-trolling, then I say the same about you. This is just a discussion on the internet, with someone who you don't know. You got carried too far away to prove that you're right.

E_S gave advice, and advice is purely based on a personal opinion. It is wrong from your side to say that his perfonal opinion is terrible, because no opinion whatsoever is terrible. Opinions are there to differ from eachother, and if you can't stand that, than atleast don't act like you are doing now.

And in your colour example:
A was bad, you said. What or who gives you the right to decide if something is bad or not? That again is your personal opinion. I say A isn't bad. Am I wrong? No, because it's my opinions. I'm wrong in YOUR opinion, but your opinion isn't everyone's opinion.

Learn to deal with that.

[a happy song]

because no opinion whatsoever is terrible. Opinions are there to differ from eachother, and if you can't stand that, than atleast don't act like you are doing now.

Just because opinions are allowed to differ, doesn't mean an opinion can't be terrible. I didn't denounce his right to an opinion, not once.

If it were my opinion that Women were inferior to Men to the point that they should be kept in cages and only brought out for chores and procreation, would you not consider that terrible?

What or who gives you the right to decide if something is bad or not?

Within the context of mapping? How about:

Experience as one of the most successful and influential authors on NUMA?

Being given the N Mapping forums to moderate?

Being given the position of NUMA admin due to my obvious experience and care for the mapping community?

I'm pretty sure I'm qualified here.

The only reason I'm contesting this guide is that I honestly think it will do new mappers a lot of harm, it's not about me trying to get one over on the little guy or push off my opinion as the most worthy. There are plenty of people out there who could release far more objective, articulate and thoughtful guides than this. E_S should be paying attention to them.

You shouldn't lecture before you've studied hard, produced your own worthy work and earned that privilege. I'm not saying you don't have a right to shoot your mouth before you've learned to aim it, but where's the real value in that?

[MattKestrel]

-_-

Stop spamming the thread or atob will have to ban himself :P

[crescor]

I wouldn't consider that terrible if it was my opinion too.
(It isn't my opinion)

Again, the things you sum up are based on the oppinion of 3/4 people, maybe more, but I'm sure there ARE people who don't think you are that good, that you deserve the admin status, or that you are experienced... I'm not one of them, because I like your maps, I think you're a good admin, etc.., but my point is, there are always people with different opinions and point of views, and none of them are right or wrong. If you think something's good, then it's good, but if someone else think it's bad, then it's bad. All is purely based on opinion.

I close this here, I won't reply anymore to anything that has relation with this, but I still have much respect for you as a mapmaker, admin, etc.



It was good entertaining for a monday-evening:)

[a happy song]

there are always people with different opinions and point of views, and none of them are right or wrong.

I'm not saying E_S's opinions or advice on mapping are wrong, I'm saying they're terrible and would be a detriment to any new mapper.

I'm glad your backing out as it's trite observations like the above quoted that clearly show you've not been paying attention to the thread anyway.

[crescor]

I payed more attention on this than I pay attention at school.
And I never had to re-do a class.
And I can't stop when I said that I will.

[a happy song]

I payed more attention on this than I pay attention at school.
And I never had to re-do a class.

Then why did I have to dissect all of my points to explain that I'm not talking about right or wrong, but objective observation learned through years of (successful?) experience?

And you still don't get it...

[crescor]

I get it,
but the reasons you give makes me think that you are talking about bad and good. I'm just saying that there are opinions and you shouldn't say an opinion (like this mapguide) is bad, because there aren't bad opinions. Ofcourse your opinion is that E_S's opinion is bad, and that's good, because it's your opinion. Phew, a whole lot of opinions.

And the reason I didn't get it straight away was because I'm not english, it isn't even my second language. And therefore, on an unrelated note, I think I did quite a nice thing with all these replies.

[crescor]

In the time it took me to write this, several posts were made, so keep that in mind.

Which is the better advice:

A: Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!
B: Here's a colour chart, choose any colour you like and get painting!

Actually, atob, I think he was pretty clear on that point:

He never said people SHOULD follow his guide, but atleast he's offering the opportunity

E_S's guide isn't totalitarian and final, it's tips about what E_S has generally found to work.

"Paint your house green because every other colour is rubbish!" is not the tone of E_S's guide, and if you honestly believe that, you should give it a quick once-over again.

And crescor does have a point about this guide being helpful to newcomers.

I think that the reason you have something against guides in general, atob, is simply knowledge of human behavior. That is, people who come to this community and have the creativity, the good taste, and/or the perseverance will eventually find themselves making good maps, while those who don't, won't. No amount of guides will change that. Not to say that guides don't contain information that would be useful to the "good" group of people, but rather that that group of people would learn those things for themselves if they didn't read the guide because they have the inclination (though they could very well learn those things faster by reading the guide). Meanwhile, the "not-so-good" group might learn some things from these guides, but obviously they won't take it to heart that much or else they would be part of the "good" group by definition.

In short, the arc of a mapper's career relies much more on the attitude and behavior of the mapper than what they could learn from guides. Thus, some people shun all guides and just say "learn it all for yourself" knowing that little would be different in a world without guides. (Am I semi-accurate, atob? Or am I just way off in the blue?)

Anyway, it's possible to understand that logic and still like guides, obviously. A good guide can be quite helpful to those who are listening.

Avarin, you nailed it.