Metanet Forums

hey everyone,
We're running an N++ tournament at PAX.. I was trying to figure out where to post this news, but there's no news section (fair enough.. we generate news at a fairly glacial pace!), and no N++ section, so I'm not sure where to post this.
(I don't know whether I'm an admin or not, but either way I can't seem to find a way to create an N++ sub-forum...)

http://www.metanetsoftware.com/blog/2014/tournaments

We can't say what the prize is yet, however let's just say that if you don't yet have a PS4 but would like one to play N++ as soon as it's released (we're working on it!), and you're going to be at PAX, you should sign up for the tournament ;)

We're really hoping to get some advanced N players in the tournament, so that we can see some high-level play in the final round.

Anyway, that's it. Please feel free to move this post wherever it's most appropriate.
Also, it would be great if someone could make an N++ section somewhere on the forums ;)

thanks,
Raigan

Good to see ya around. There is an N+ forum here http://forum.droni.es/viewforum.php?f=22

but no N++ yet. The forums haven't been updated in a long time and are due for an oeuvrehaul.

Wow, that sounds like fun! Wish I could be there. Curious, are you guys gonna hold another level-making contest for N++? I regret not jumping at the opportunity to be in +#1. Also I just @tweeted you some #suggesties for #Ninja #groupies. Progress on the game looks solid as ever!

Awesome, thanks whoever made this sub-forum! :)

@yuuzu: We're definitely going to be having more "contesques", but not for levels.

With N+, level sharing was limited so we thought the contesque was a good way to get user levels out there to players so everyone could enjoy them.

This time, the level editor + sharing part will be much more fleshed out -- our goal is for the built-in levels and user-made levels to be equal. If we do our job right, there should be no need to include user-made levels in the built-in part of the game.

One of the filters/queries you can use to browse the levels will be "recommended" which will be levels we both like, so that will hopefully sort of be a perpetual contesque ;)

Good stuff. I guess this leads in to another question, which you guys have probably heard a thousand times over already, but I'd like to know where your heads are at currently. Is the PS4 release a timed exclusivity thing? Are you guys seriously considering a PC release, on the fence about it, or is it out of the question?

Vyacheslav wrote:Good to see ya around. There is an N+ forum here http://forum.droni.es/viewforum.php?f=22

but no N++ yet. The forums haven't been updated in a long time and are due for an oeuvrehaul.

:( I personally completely overhauled the forums less than a year ago.

♥ At least the new N++ forum is there.

Fly Eddy out, so that he can mop the floor with filthy casual blood.

This sounds like it would be fun to watch, any chance of it being recorded/VODs made available for those of us who can't be there?

ska wrote:Fly Eddy out, so that he can mop the floor with filthy casual blood.

I am willing to donate an entire £1 to Eddy's plane ticket.

@yuuzhu: PC's definitely not out of the question! It's just not really something we're thinking about yet because we're already a year behind schedule on PS4 :/

raigan wrote:@yuuzhu: PC's definitely not out of the question! It's just not really something we're thinking about yet because we're already a year behind schedule on PS4 :/

I know this has been said before, but Wii U would have been such an awesome platform to utilise. As somebody already pointed out, the touch screen would lend itself very well to level design, and the Wii U has a really good social sharing platform built in. I fear it might be too late, but I had to say it. Also, what physics engine are you using for N++? Is it based off a predecessor, or has it been built completely from scratch? I can't imagine you would want to waste time completely redoing an engine, but obviously you would want to add something new that isn't just a port of N 2.0 with a higher resolution and a few cheap novelties...

The Wii U would have been great, but unfortunately N++ wouldn't run on it! We're maxing the PS4's (substantially powerful) GPU as it is -- but let's back up a bit. For N++ we're working with Shawn McGrath, who made DYAD for PSN, and is an incredible programmer. Before N++ and after DYAD, we discovered we have similar tastes with respect to graphics, and started tossing around ideas, prototyping super smooth graphics and talking vectors. Shawn was interested in writing a vector renderer, and his game engine was pretty flexible, so we moved all-in and started working on N++.

As you know, controlling the ninja in N feels a certain way, by design, and it's important to us that N++ feels just as good as N, even at 60fps and 1080p. Thus, Shawn ported our codebase into his engine -- the architecture is translated into a new programming language, and via a new programmer's way of doing things, but functionally it's the same. 'Cause there is no physics engine per se, our physics is an integral part of N's codebase. From there, we've been tweaking and tuning the game feel to suit the new platform, the new constraints, and the new graphics.

What's most exciting about the new graphics is how they reflect the feel of the controls -- both are incredibly smooth. N++ feels responsive, fluid and precise, all at once. We're really happy with it (we weren't 100% happy with how N+ felt, which is partly why we're devoting so much time and thought and energy to N++). Anyway long story short, the graphics are 100% vector, text included, and are very power-hungry. Side effect, that really limits the platforms we can bring the game to -- I mean, if we can bring it to others at all! Hopefully it'll sell well enough that we can afford to port :)

We've added a bunch of new things, but no cheap novelties, so no worries there, ska.

Keep up the great work, guys. Love the gameplay additions I've seen, and the game of course looks incredible. Really seems like the N you've always wanted to make. No doubt a game so foyne will get you the cashflow, so I'm glad to hear a port is a possibility! Can't wait to show my Steam friends how good I am at this game. (You hear that? That's basically free money.)

I'm sure the physics engine is good judging from the clips but I think thousands of in-game maps are too many. I'm mostly concerned about the user level concept you'd be using, I don't think it can be great without using alerts (-search by maps with alerts on them e.g. if your rank on highscore table changed and even search by recent activity so you can see which old maps are being played so you can watch/join in (or a feature to see your chosen friends' recent activity)) -but I'm sure you've still done it well, so looking forward to seeing it in action..

james_S wrote:I don't think you guys should've bothered making thousands of in-game maps. I'm mostly concerned about the user level concept you'd be using, I don't think it can be great without using alerts (-search by maps with alerts on them e.g. if your rank on highscore table changed and even search by recent activity so you can see which old maps are being played so you can watch/join in (or a feature to see your friends' recent activity)) -but I'm sure you've still done it well so looking forward to seeing it in action..

I disagree with the ingame levels assertion. Userlevels are one thing, which is great and essential. But regarding highscoring, the most optimal and fun thing to do, is to have a selection of levels (1000 is fine) which will be more seriously highscored, just like in v1.4 and v2.0. Highscoring makes no sense if the collection of levels is increasing every single hour (check how poor all userlevel scores are and you will get my point, some don't even reach 10 scores).

well I meant because a lot of Eddys will be needed to fill the scoreboards and you gottu have a reachable finish line and the maps are bound to be too similar or different map styles to yours even if worse can provide refreshment

The tournament sounds like a lot of fun, too bad it's all the way in America so there's no way a Finnish student like myself could afford the trip. I hope some great players show up and make it a good show!

I really hope there will be a PC version as I'm super excited about the game but can't afford a PS4. Any thoughts on implementing a competitive speedrun mode like the Nreality mod did? ;)

@james_S: we're definitely trying to make sure that players know when eg they lose a top-20 highscore.

@MiBeM: there will (hopefully) be a more competitive speedrun-ish set of rules you can use the play with.. we're still working out the details though.

@EddyMataGallos: we're hoping that we can figure out a good heuristic for identifying levels which are popular for highscore-chasing so that user-made levels can be fun to compete in too. In fact, we're hoping that user-made levels become more popular than the built-in ones... we feel like our levels aren't necessarily the best/most fun for highscore purposes. (We think the levels we've been making lately are the best we've ever made, BUT many of them aren't strictly focused on competitive highscoring.. user-made maps that specifically target this use/play-style could be really cool!)

I have a good feeling about the development of N++, based off just a few things that Mare & Raigan have either directly mentioned or, at least, alluded to. Firstly, though, I'd like to point out a few technical things that Mare & Raigan probably already know, but I feel it bears further interrogation/clarification. I'm impressed that you're going to get a 1080p render on PS4—and at 60FPS, no less; since there are still PS4 games which are running at ~900p to avoid dropped frames—but if resolution is the main thing holding back a port of the Wii U; I must stress that even 720p output delivers crisp details on the Wii U, and I point to the beautiful rendering of Mario Kart 8 and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze with 1080p upscale as notable examples. I concur, that if even a 720p render is out of the question, then that option should no longer be tabled; however, if it is a lack of programming optimization that is stifling performance... well that's a shame; but it did sound to me that you guys were really trying to squeeze the most out of the PS4's processing power; which I assume includes efficient and innovative programming concepts. It sounds like your code has been containerized into Shawn's, which may hinder performance/consume more processing power—correct me if I'm mistaken!)

I feel that I don't need to tell you that vector based graphics always upscale magnificently! Even as someone who really appreciates high definition graphics, smooth and consistent gameplay should always be paramount. Hopefully, a console that is ubiquitous, and has common specifications, will eradicate lag problems, such as the issues that many PC users had on N 2.0. If a Steam port is on the way, I sincerely hope that this time, compatibility will be a larger focus. (I'm always looking for work, so if you'd like someone with 10 years of N experience and programming experience to play the critic, shoot me a PM/email. I'm serious! I want you to succeed more than anyone, and it's not just for selfish reasons; I assure you!)

Technical details aside, I'm happy to hear Raigan mention "top-20" scores, and I hope that episode scoring makes a comeback. It seems that highscorers unanimously preferred the older way of highscoring: where you could read your score after level completion to chart your progress on a level, obtain a highscore through the normal way of playing through episodes, etc. I also think some kind of "ghost mode", like the one that was utilized in a recent version of NReality, would be wicked, and a genuinely useful tool for players, or just players who want to generally improve their skills.

Lastly, if you could somehow arrange Eddy to play the N++ tournament, using some kind of remote "fly-by-wire" method, that would be insanely cool! I think Eddy would still be competitive with a 50m/s ping!

P.S. Literally just wrote this entire thing, and was seconds away from hitting "submit", when Chrome crashed. Luckily Chrome saved my entire message, so yeah... go Chrome or go home.

Here's my input:

- Top-20 scores is far superior to top-10 scores with its allowance for more people to visually see their progress and proximity to the best run.
- Highscorers prefer having set professional levels to compete on - too many levels (user levels) makes mastery difficult if there is a flood of different user levels to attempt to conquer - which do you put your time and effort into? By having a set 500-1000 or so 'Metanet' levels - people can put their effort into perfecting these original ones.
- Speedrun highscoring mode would be simply awesome.
- Functions such as ghost mode and other functions (like the functions in nReality) would truly make it great.
- The highscores layout in Nv1.4 with the grid of episodes is far easier and quicker to navigate than in Nv2.0
- A Steam port would be brilliant as generally everyone has access to computers - it would also generate a lot of cash too!

I don't have a ps4, but would probably buy one just for this!

Also, i would support Eddy or Macro to somehow compete at this competition! (BTW - would it be streamed on twitch? i'd love to watch)

You guys are Awesome!

I'm impressed that you're going to get a 1080p render on PS4—and at 60FPS, no less; since there are still PS4 games which are running at ~900p to avoid dropped frames—but if resolution is the main thing holding back a port of the Wii U; I must stress that even 720p output delivers crisp details on the Wii U, and I point to the beautiful rendering of Mario Kart 8 and Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze with 1080p upscale as notable examples. I concur, that if even a 720p render is out of the question, then that option should no longer be tabled; however, if it is a lack of programming optimization that is stifling performance... well that's a shame; but it did sound to me that you guys were really trying to squeeze the most out of the PS4's processing power; which I assume includes efficient and innovative programming concepts. It sounds like your code has been containerized into Shawn's, which may hinder performance/consume more processing power—correct me if I'm mistaken!)

It supports 720p as well, and we can even scale it up to 4K. Our code is not encapsulated in Shawn's engine, it's been fully translated and incorporated into it. It's not about optimization, N++ is just really intense!

Steam is the number one port on our list, since that would reach the largest number of people -- we just need enough money to make it happen, so hopefully it'll sell well on PS4. We'll definitely be putting some effort into making the user experience as consistent as possible (more doable with a custom engine, as opposed to an actionscript shell we don't have much ability to tinker with).

Anyway glad you're all feeling optimistic about N++! We're pretty happy with it so far, and we're confident you'll find a lot to like.

About the tournament -- we've planned to at least capture video of the final game to upload. I'm looking into streaming the whole thing on twitch, hopefully that works out.

nadroj347 wrote:Here's my input:

- Top-20 scores is far superior to top-10 scores with its allowance for more people to visually see their progress and proximity to the best run.
- Highscorers prefer having set professional levels to compete on - too many levels (user levels) makes mastery difficult if there is a flood of different user levels to attempt to conquer - which do you put your time and effort into? By having a set 500-1000 or so 'Metanet' levels - people can put their effort into perfecting these original ones.
- Speedrun highscoring mode would be simply awesome.
- Functions such as ghost mode and other functions (like the functions in nReality) would truly make it great.
- The highscores layout in Nv1.4 with the grid of episodes is far easier and quicker to navigate than in Nv2.0
- A Steam port would be brilliant as generally everyone has access to computers - it would also generate a lot of cash too!

I don't have a ps4, but would probably buy one just for this!

Also, i would support Eddy or Macro to somehow compete at this competition! (BTW - would it be streamed on twitch? i'd love to watch)

You guys are Awesome!

What nadro has so eloquently put, is true on every account.

I'd especially like to highlight this:

nadroj347 wrote:- The highscores layout in Nv1.4 with the grid of episodes is far easier and quicker to navigate than in Nv2.0

I've said this before; so please excuse me if this is being overly staunch, but the fact that it takes so damn long to open up a level on 2.0 cannot be overstated. For instance: say you want to play 86-1, it will take you seven clicks just to start playing the level using normal navigation (as opposed to starting with the 80s and regressing backwards, which incidentally, takes six), where as it only takes four to do it in 1.4, and only two if you decide to play it as part of an episode.

Mare wrote:It supports 720p as well, and we can even scale it up to 4K. Our code is not encapsulated in Shawn's engine, it's been fully translated and incorporated into it. It's not about optimization, N++ is just really intense!

I was hoping this was the case on both points, and I'm very glad you pointed it out. Sometimes I swear you can read my mind!

Mare wrote:Steam is the number one port on our list, since that would reach the largest number of people -- we just need enough money to make it happen, so hopefully it'll sell well on PS4. We'll definitely be putting some effort into making the user experience as consistent as possible (more doable with a custom engine, as opposed to an actionscript shell we don't have much ability to tinker with).

I also had a feeling that GUI consistency was one of the limitations with ActionScript; certainly, I now fully understand and appreciate the compromises you made in respect to this. Regarding Steam: sometimes you need to roll the dice and throw caution to the wind. I honestly think the "wait and see" approach with the PS4 version is not only a skittish approach, but a foolhardy one. If you have the resources available to make it happen, do it. You have a solid fanbase; the leap of faiths have inherit safety nets, and the sooner you deliver, the better.

Mare wrote:About the tournament -- we've planned to at least capture video of the final game to upload. I'm looking into streaming the whole thing on twitch, hopefully that works out.

When you say "the final game", are you talking about the grand final of the tournament, or something else? I don't think it would be too difficult to capture the whole contest, if only to have a wide array of highlights to pick from and incorporate into a sweet as compilation/promo video.

Definitely things we're taking into account. The UI in N++ is loads better than in Nv2.0 -- number of button presses until playing is specifically one of the things we focused on, making sure to keep it as low as possible.

When you say "the final game", are you talking about the grand final of the tournament, or something else? I don't think it would be too difficult to capture the whole contest, if only to have a wide array of highlights to pick from and incorporate into a sweet as compilation/promo video.

oh sorry, yep, the final round. It's not that it would be difficult to capture the entire tournament, it's just that it might be quite long -- and/or maybe the qualifiers would be largely boring, we're not sure how things will work out or what kind of players we'll attract. I can pretty much guarantee the final round will be exciting though, so that's why we know for sure we'll be uploading that -- anyway, I'll capture as much as I can and we'll go from there!

Mare wrote:Definitely things we're taking into account. The UI in N++ is loads better than in Nv2.0 -- number of button presses until playing is specifically one of the things we focused on, making sure to keep it as low as possible.

When you say "the final game", are you talking about the grand final of the tournament, or something else? I don't think it would be too difficult to capture the whole contest, if only to have a wide array of highlights to pick from and incorporate into a sweet as compilation/promo video.

oh sorry, yep, the final round. It's not that it would be difficult to capture the entire tournament, it's just that it might be quite long -- and/or maybe the qualifiers would be largely boring, we're not sure how things will work out or what kind of players we'll attract. I can pretty much guarantee the final round will be exciting though, so that's why we know for sure we'll be uploading that -- anyway, I'll capture as much as I can and we'll go from there!

May I suggest capturing the whole tournament anyway? It's not like you'd have to spend much more money—if any—to do so. I think a cool idea would be to utilise any close calls/close finishes and interesting rivalries—especially those pertaining to the top two—into the complete video prior the final round. (That's assuming you're going to make a special video about the tournament; which I, for one, would love to see...)

Mare wrote:Definitely things we're taking into account. The UI in N++ is loads better than in Nv2.0 -- number of button presses until playing is specifically one of the things we focused on, making sure to keep it as low as possible.

Any chance for an MS-DOS version?