NUMA going forward

Postby **Arachnid** » 2009.01.18 (23:24)

An email from GForce20 about the site he's working on prompted me to post here. I don't really monitor the 'new' forums, so this is the first I've heard about AltArc.

First, as most of you probably know, I don't have much spare time any longer. Apart from working at Google, my spare time is almost entirely taken up with a number of things, including a couple of consulting projects, personal projects, and most recently, I started co-authoring a book on Google App Engine. I'm also married, and my wife gets first dibs on my spare time.

As a result, NUMA's pretty much been in 'maintenance mode' for a while now. I'd love to see new features added, and there's been some really excellent suggestions in the uservoice page, but I simply don't have the time. atob and bt do an excellent job of day to day administration, but they're not Python coders.

There's been an open (but poorly advertised) invitation for some time for anyone with coding expertise who wants to pick up NUMA and do some development on it, potentially with a mind to taking over as lead developer. It requires some knowledge of Python, but it's a nice language and easy to learn. For anyone who knows the language and wants to contribute, I'm quite happy to contribute some of my time showing them around the code and answering questions, helping them to get started, etc.

I should point out that if you've never written a line of code in your life, this probably isn't for you. No doubt you can learn Python - and I'd recommend doing so regardless - but diving straight into this project probably isn't the best idea. Regardless of your credentials, though, I'll want to do some code reviews on initial contributions by anyone before I give them unfettered access to the source code repository.

With all that in mind, people like GForce are still quite welcome to start up new sites. If they want to 'fork' NUMA and use my code, it's there for the asking (but not OLDMA - the code that drove that is a bit of an embarrassment). If they want to start from scratch, they're also welcome to do that. I think starting from scratch is a poor use of time, but that's their perogative.

For anyone in that latter category, NUMA has some interoperability features, such as ways to fetch map data programmatically without requiring you to parse the HTML it generates. If you have something specific in mind, contact me, and we can sort something out. Better intercompatibility helps users, which is what's important, not the egos of the people developing the site and who has the 'bigger' one.

I'd also suggest that anyone wanting to start their own NUMA-clone or fansite doesn't invent their own login system. M&R exposed the login system to me for NUMA to use, and with their permission, I'm happy to show others how to use it. I'm also happy to make NUMA an OpenID provider, so N players can use their N accounts on other sites (both N-related and otherwise) seamlessly, if there's demand for it.

And no, this isn't a "goodbye" email. I may be absent, but I'm not gone - I'm here at least as long as 2000 of you keep visiting NUMA every day and I'm the only coder onboard. ;)

http://nmaps.net/user/astheoceansblue · Postby **a happy song** » 2009.01.18 (23:30)

I was hoping for something like this, nicely put man.

If we can find someone to handle the coding, I'll be more than happy to help manage the suggestions and tasking. I've a lot of free time for the next couple of months, so this is an ample opportunity to get this thing moving forward.

And thanks Arachnid, all your efforts are well appreciated.

http://nmaps.net/user/PALEMOON · Postby **PALEMOON** » 2009.01.18 (23:41)

does this mean, possibly, that if some people volunteered to do it, that NUMA would basically integrate all the good ideas put forth in the AltArc thread? or are they going to remain seperate? I regret not knowing any Python or anything, though. not much i can do >.>

Postby **Arachnid** » 2009.01.18 (23:45)

PALEMOON wrote:does this mean, possibly, that if some people volunteered to do it, that NUMA would basically integrate all the good ideas put forth in the AltArc thread? or are they going to remain seperate? I regret not knowing any Python or anything, though. not much i can do >.>

Pretty much. There are a few caveats, though:
- Some things aren't technically practical on App Engine. Multiple sort orders, for example.
- Some things have been proven not to work the way people want them to. Showing who gave what ratings on each map, for example.
- Some things take "nothing less than a careful, considered approach*" when it comes to modifying them, and I'd rather not have people just come in and hack around without talking about it first. Reforming the ratings system dramatically, for example.

Put together, though, those areas still cover only a small minority of the things people want done, so the short answer is 'yes'.

* 10 points to the first person to identify the source of this quote.

http://nmaps.net/user/littleviking001 · Postby **LittleViking** » 2009.01.18 (23:49)

I'd be happy to take some coding responsibility over Numa. I have a few years of experience as lead coder here at The Real N doing the various PHP projects here and there. I have experience with MySQL, although I'm sure it pales in comparison to your database experience. More recently, I picked up Python, and while I haven't used it for web much yet, it's definitely something I'd like to take on. I do have an App Engine account and the development tools Google provides for that - I could look through the docs and put some samples together if you'd like to see that.

Postby **Arachnid** » 2009.01.19 (00:00)

LittleViking wrote:I'd be happy to take some coding responsibility over Numa. I have a few years of experience as lead coder here at The Real N doing the various PHP projects here and there. I have experience with MySQL, although I'm sure it pales in comparison to your database experience. More recently, I picked up Python, and while I haven't used it for web much yet, it's definitely something I'd like to take on. I do have an App Engine account and the development tools Google provides for that - I could look through the docs and put some samples together if you'd like to see that.

Alright. For you and anyone else interested, here's an archive of NUMA's source code (slightly modified to remove a couple of secret identifiers it uses for generating sessions and uploading to S3). I've been intending to open-source it, but haven't got around to it yet - if I get willing contributors, I likely will do so.

Your challenge, should you choose to accept it: Implement a new feature or bugfix of any sort with complexity greater than 'trivial', and send it to me. The app should run fine on the development server, and files for loading sample data are provided.

http://nmaps.net/user/Fraxtil · Postby **Fraxtil** » 2009.01.19 (02:05)

I'm glad to hear from you about this! However, I will admit that I have absolutely no experience with the Google App Engine, and little with Python. If AltArc ever does take off, I would be more than happy to use a common login system, if possible. As for multiple sort orders, I'd like to hear more about why this is incompatible with the new Numa. I think I might be able to help.

I apologize for my sentences being a bit out-of-order and random, I'm just a bit surprised to hear from you so quickly.

http://nmaps.net/user/epigone · Postby **epigone** » 2009.01.19 (23:21)

I'm glad to hear from you again Arachnid, as I'm sure everyone is. It's good that you're willing to work with the community to continue to improve NUMA despite your life being as busy as it is - I can only hope that our little community has some closet coders who can help take up the torch and work with Arachnid to continuously improve NUMA for everyone.

http://nmaps.net/user/%5D%7BNO3 · Postby **//Zander** » 2009.01.20 (09:06)

o crap.
if numa changes hands, forks or starts again or whatever, then I'm leaving...

then I'll have to find a big log to fill the hole it'll leave in my life.

Postby **otters~1** » 2009.01.20 (23:42)

This is great. I think that all effort should be put into integrating Gforce's ideas/changes into the already existing NUMA. This would be vastly preferable to having competing map archives. Besides, with NUMA we've already got a functional archive, even if we disagree about some of the little things.

http://nmaps.net/user/wumbla · Postby **wumbla** » 2009.01.21 (02:55)

This is exiting.

That's all I have to say.

(=

Postby **大見解** » 2009.01.22 (15:49)

I shall agree. NUMA's been like this so long. We sorta want at least some change. The forums, the *relatively* new nmaps.net................um......Yes we can...?

Facebook! · Postby **jean-luc** » 2009.01.22 (19:02)

I can help out. Arachnid, I'll send you a sample just as soon as I familiarize myself with GAE (might take a bit, this is finals week. :( )

http://nmaps.net/user/Nexx · Postby **Nexx** » 2009.01.24 (08:57)

As always, well put, Arachnid. Your cooperation and foresight really are laudable. :)

But, as GForce mentioned, I think we'd all like to know why sorted listings aren't possible with the App Engine. Furthermore, I know I'd be interested in hearing your (assuredly good) reasons for moving to Google's App Engine. I don't know, I'm just wondering if it's really a good idea to stick with App Engine. On a "basic website functionality" list, I'd put #1 as "users are able to easily access and manipulate important information". One of the coolest things about AltArc (for me, at least) is its promise of bringing map sorting, comment ordering, top-rated, and all authors. Also, I get the feeling that truncated results occur for a reason similar to why sorted listings aren't possible, and if so, can that problem really be eliminated completely? Not to mention that optional stylesheets would be badass.

So yeah, tell us all about App Engine. :)

http://nmaps.net/user/Atilla · Postby **Atilla** » 2009.01.25 (02:21)

Avarin wrote:Also, I get the feeling that truncated results occur for a reason similar to why sorted listings aren't possible, and if so, can that problem really be eliminated completely?

LV seems to have worked out what's causing it. Don't know if a work-around is possible. Also, LV is awesome.

http://nmaps.net/user/Nexx · Postby **Nexx** » 2009.01.25 (06:34)

Atilla wrote:LV seems to have worked out what's causing it. Don't know if a work-around is possible. Also, LV is awesome.

Interesting. I guess it won't ever be gone for good, then. :( In any case, if there's a GQL, how similar is it to SQL? My real question: why wouldn't it allow for sorted listings to be made?

http://nmaps.net/user/rikaninja · Postby **Rikaninja** » 2009.01.25 (07:05)

Very exciting I must say. Thanks Arachnid and anyone else who wishes to help :D Is Unreality any good at this? Just an idea.

I'm no good at anything apart from simple dreamweaver. So unfortunately I can't help out. This is a big thing, and not many people seem to be paying attention. A lot of the NUMA goers may be totally caught of gaurd when this all happens. As many of them don't really look around on the forums.

http://www.nmaps.net/user/Aidiera · Postby **aids** » 2009.01.25 (07:07)

Rikaninja wrote:I'm no good at anything apart from simple dreamweaver.

aye.

http://nmaps.net/user/z3phyr · Postby **Zephyr** » 2009.01.26 (06:42)

I finally managed to get access to the internet! =D (I'm on holiday)

Life247 wrote:
Rikaninja wrote:I'm no good at anything apart from simple dreamweaver.
aye.

Aye aye

And is NUMA down, or is it the laptop?

http://nmaps.net/user/santa_hat_crusader · Postby **Superpok** » 2009.01.27 (05:20)

i doubt that unreality is any good at this, he's mainly a game programmer. To my limited knowledge, that knowledge doesn't transfer over

http://nmaps.net/user/littleviking001 · Postby **LittleViking** » 2009.01.27 (05:28)

Unreality would definitely be able to pick up Python and the webapp tools. Whether he'd be interested or not is another issue.

http://nmaps.net/user/spawn_of_yanni · Postby **Spawn of Yanni** » 2009.01.27 (12:51)

With all due respect, I'd rather have it handed over to someone far more involved in the community. I feel like it would be too easy to lose contact with Unreality and have the entire thing out of our hands.

http://nmaps.net/user/rikaninja · Postby **Rikaninja** » 2009.02.01 (10:08)

Obviously this isn't going very far. So is atob doing it? Or for a short ammount of time will there be ike a small team, and then everyone can vote and choose the one who wil take over or something?

http://nmaps.net/user/littleviking001 · Postby **LittleViking** » 2009.02.01 (12:16)

No one seems to understand that this isn't a *competition*. Anyone who takes the time to learn Numa's system well enough that they can add on to it and fix its bugs will be added on as a coder. It's not a "best coder wins" type deal, it's an open invitation.

To answer your question about atob, I don't think he's a coder, so he probably won't be taking this on. And that's fine, he's doing a good job in his place as admin. Admins don't have to be coders, and coders don't have to be admins - They're two different skillsets.

http://nmaps.net/user/santa_hat_crusader · Postby **Superpok** » 2009.02.09 (01:31)

yeah, i think Gforce should take over numa, having too seperate archives would really suck

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