nobody cares...

[Condog]

I rarely rate maps these days. With no Top Rated list, rating is pointless.

DEAR GOD WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

Rating a map highly pushes it to the top of the "Hot Maps" page, thus pushing new maps down the page when they should be first in line.
Rating a map lowly pushes it to the bottom, and sometimes off of the "Hot Maps" page, thus making it quite possible for other users to miss the map entirely.

You'd think that a map worthy of a high rating would deserve to be on the newest page longer, otherwise, it would not have been rated highly. And, following this logic, a map given a low rating is not deserving of time in the limelight. I honestly can't figure out what your problem is, considering you just described and gave supporting evidence to a view contrary to the one you claim to hold. :/

[Nexx]

You'd think that a map worthy of a high rating would deserve to be on the newest page longer, otherwise, it would not have been rated highly. And, following this logic, a map given a low rating is not deserving of time in the limelight. I honestly can't figure out what your problem is, considering you just described and gave supporting evidence to a view contrary to the one you claim to hold. :/

Condog, you really couldn't figure this one out? AMLT's saying that everyone has different tastes and that maps shouldn't be kept in or out of the spotlight based on 3 or so rates. That's a really low sample size. I personally think the float/sink system is a decent idea, and at the very least has good intentions, but even so I can still see AMLT's point. It's the shortcoming of the system. Everyone knows about it (or would realize it if they give it a bit of thought), but they would prefer the benefits over that shortcoming. Clearly, AMLT thinks it's much too large of a shortcoming.

@eganic: Quality of maps isn't everything. NicNac's whole bloody point is that maps of pretty good quality aren't getting rated on the hot maps page. See for yourself: scan through the latest 100 maps on NUMA (but skip the first 10. So go from 10 - 110). Using whatever decision-making process it is that you use naturally to pick what maps look interesting or worth playing, see how many you think you would be interested in playing. Then see how many of those are rated. I just did it right now and I come up with 28 interesting, 10 rated. That's only 1/3. (I should add that only 1 of those 28 was a no-name author.) NicNac and I (and hopefully others) find this truth of NUMA to be disappointing at best.

At the very least, I imagined people would join together in this thread to say "yeah, that sucks" (perhaps even tagging on an "oh well" or "nothing to be done"), but instead NicNac has received some pretty harsh responses, like spudz's, "make better maps and stop whining" post. In the words of Mr. Mugatu, "Doesn't anybody notice this? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!"

[LouDog004]

Ratings and comments are meaningless. I don't just mean that in a "get over it, stop whining. move on" way. They are objectively and subjectively worthless. Seeing that your map is 1/5 ninjas terrible or 4.5/5 ninjas awesome does nothing to improve your ability to make maps. 99% of comments are "cool map" or "I loved the flow" or "cool object placement" or "agd". How does that help you at all?

If you're actually concerned with getting better, and not just looking for the validation of having rated maps, be proactive about it. Get on IRC and pastebin your map before you submit it to Numa. There are many people happy and willing to help you playtest, critique, and give advice about your tileset and enemy placement.

Basically, if you just fucking nut up and join the community instead of stomping your feet and pouting that no one is inviting you in, you'll enjoy Numa and map making much more.

[toasters]

If you're new/inexperienced and struggle with making quality maps, that would be a good starting point -
atob's guide: http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1222

If you're making quality maps but they're getting ignored -
lord_day's guide: http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=99

Or you could use these -
Map Rating thread: http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=197
Map Commenting thread: http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=198

You could also consider joining this -
Map Rating Group: http://forum.therealn.com/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=390

But most importantly as LouDog004 points out is that you need to be proactive. The community has provided quite a few ways of getting yourself known and making friends, i.e. the forums, IRC, even NUMA itself. If you take a few minute to play, rate, and make some meaningful comments on other's maps, in all likelihood they will reciprocate.

Basically, if you just fucking nut up and join the community instead of stomping your feet and pouting that no one is inviting you in, you'll enjoy Numa and map making much more.

A little harshly put, but correct.

[Nexx]

Ratings and comments are meaningless. I don't just mean that in a "get over it, stop whining. move on" way. They are objectively and subjectively worthless. Seeing that your map is 1/5 ninjas terrible or 4.5/5 ninjas awesome does nothing to improve your ability to make maps. 99% of comments are "cool map" or "I loved the flow" or "cool object placement" or "agd". How does that help you at all?

Ratings/comments are not meaningless to me. Though I map for myself, the point is still to have others play your creations, so if no one pays attention to what I submit, I start wondering what the point is. It's not about feedback so you can become a better mapper. It's about people playing your creations.

Basically, if you just fucking nut up and join the community instead of stomping your feet and pouting that no one is inviting you in, you'll enjoy Numa and map making much more.

Yes, community stuff (MRT/MCT/MRG) is exactly what I use to get my maps rated/commented to my liking. Again, for the love of god, the point is that it doesn't happen on the newest maps page. In no way is this largely about my own maps either.

Perhaps you (LouDog, toasters, and anyone else) need an example of what it would be like if I had nothing to lament about. I used to map for Unreal Tournament back in the day, and even a no-name author didn't have to be "part of the community" for a decent map of his/hers to get noticed. People played new maps if they didn't suck. I think the only reason this doesn't happen in the N mapping community is that it takes less time to make a map in N, so there are 50 new maps in a day versus 5 - 10 in a day for UT.

And by the way, LouDog, your last statement there about "stomping your feet and pouting" etc. is pretty much exactly "get over it. stop whining. move on." :P

If you take a few minute to play, rate, and make some meaningful comments on other's maps, in all likelihood they will reciprocate.

Aha! There it is! From my experience, this is one of the most widely propagated falsehoods in the community. I'm sure anyone in the MRG will tell you that I leave constructive feedback (with few exceptions). I have RCDE'd almost 300 maps in the past 2.5 months while submitting only about 5 of my own, and each of those got a whopping 3 or 4 rates on its own (not just from Hot Maps). My point is not that constructive feedback isn't worth it - it is, even if you receive nothing in return. But people always talk like it will somehow cause others to show more interest in your maps. I have yet to observe that.

EDIT: In any case, what's wrong with you people? Do you like that you have to involve yourself in the community for your maps to start getting significant attention? Is that a plus? Because NicNac and I (and others) think it sucks. And if you think it sucks, but you've gotten over it, then before you start typing "that's the way it is, try this this this", take a minute to just type "Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, and it sucks. It shouldn't be like that." I can't believe all the snotty responses this thread has gotten.

[toasters]

And if you think it sucks, but you've gotten over it, then before you start typing "that's the way it is, try this this this", take a minute to just type "Yeah, I know exactly what you're talking about, and it sucks. It shouldn't be like that." I can't believe all the snotty responses this thread has gotten.

Well, I think that was what NicNac already pointed out, so I was just leaving it unsaid. I think it's been mentioned before, but there always going to be things that go unseen on sites like these. And of course that's bad, but like you said it's just what happens. And while I appreciate your point on leaving feedback, I think it does occur if only on a small scale. And if nothing else, it's a step in the right direction.

I thought the point of this thread was to offer solutions, so I listed a few options. If this thread is just for complaining than it's pretty useless, because this problem has been discussed many times before.

[Nexx]

I thought the point of this thread was to offer solutions, so I listed a few options. If this thread is just for complaining than it's pretty useless, because this problem has been discussed many times before.

Fair enough. I believe the point of this thread was to try to rally people around the cause of alleviating the problem. I just found some people's responses (not yours) to be more along the lines of denying that problem, which I find to be unacceptable. On top of that, I think those that acknowledge the problem aren't saying so explicitly (like you said you didn't), and instead just try offering solutions for one person when the problem is the site a whole. Even those responses (which are trying to be helpful) seem like a misunderstanding of or disagreement with NicNac's first post. Thus I sought to defend that post.

Oh and thank you for taking the time to look back at this and respond again. :)

[LouDog004]

I used to map for Unreal Tournament back in the day, and even a no-name author didn't have to be "part of the community" for a decent map of his/hers to get noticed. People played new maps if they didn't suck. I think the only reason this doesn't happen in the N mapping community is that it takes less time to make a map in N, so there are 50 new maps in a day versus 5 - 10 in a day for UT.

People are probably playing your maps though. I never rate, rarely comment, and still play lots of maps. There's also a difference between UT maps and N maps. You can play a good map on UT indefinitely, whereas N maps are very very transient. It's the nature of the game. I think that is very frustrating for a lot of people. Even the greatest map ever possibly conceived, I'm only going to play for at most 30 minutes to an hour. Once you've learned the intricacies of a map and maybe ironed out a speed route and an all gold route, a map is exhausted.

[toasters]

I thought the point of this thread was to offer solutions, so I listed a few options. If this thread is just for complaining than it's pretty useless, because this problem has been discussed many times before.

Fair enough. I believe the point of this thread was to try to rally people around the cause of alleviating the problem. I just found some people's responses (not yours) to be more along the lines of denying that problem, which I find to be unacceptable. On top of that, I think those that acknowledge the problem aren't saying so explicitly (like you said you didn't), and instead just try offering solutions for one person when the problem is the site a whole. Even those responses (which are trying to be helpful) seem like a misunderstanding of or disagreement with NicNac's first post. Thus I sought to defend that post.

Oh and thank you for taking the time to look back at this and respond again. :)

Don't mention it :)

This problem has been on my mind recently, so I'm going to point out a few issues that you guys have mentioned and that I've thought of. I'm not going to try and offer any solutions either. These are just some things to think about, and I'll try and be as objective as I can.

1) spam maps push good maps off the front page
2) time issues put constraints on people
3) the flaws of the rating system distort the Hot Maps page
4) people would rather play a map from an established author rather than a new user's map
4) rare displays of a "give and take" attitude
5) as the community continues to grow these problems become magnified

*whew* that was annoying. I wrote this entire post from my iPod, but I really just wanted to get it off my mind so I could sleep. Ah well at least that's over. Good night.

[Nexx]

There's also a difference between UT maps and N maps. You can play a good map on UT indefinitely, whereas N maps are very very transient. It's the nature of the game. I think that is very frustrating for a lot of people. Even the greatest map ever possibly conceived, I'm only going to play for at most 30 minutes to an hour. Once you've learned the intricacies of a map and maybe ironed out a speed route and an all gold route, a map is exhausted.

That's a very good point.

[origami_alligator]

I don't know if unrated maps is an issue.

I think if someone isn't rating your map, either you have submitted the map at a time when the site is extremely busy and is taking many maps per hour, or your map is awful.

I would like to point out that NUMA has gone from receiving 50 maps a day to between 150-200 maps a day within the last year or so. It was easier for users to deal with 50 maps per day (that's 5 pages of new maps), but 15-20 pages of new maps every day is a bit much.

I think NUMA is experiencing a large classroom effect. When you have 15-20 people in a classroom the teacher can give everybody a fair amount of individual attention and give better help where it is needed. Double the size of the classroom and you're basically on your own. Make friends quickly and form alliances!

[blue_tetris]

Not to get involved (or repeat myself), but the Hot Maps page isn't for newest maps. It's for really good recent maps.

Active Authors is for the newest maps.

[Cheez]

"...commenting and rating is meaningless."
If you comment and rate maps from a person, they are usually more likely to check out your maps. Commenting and rating on many maps, therefore, is a way to get yourself noticed more. If you are a new user like me, and just submit a map without checking out other people's maps:

1: You are missing out on a whole lot of good maps to be seen. This also goes for people that just look at the first page of Hot Maps and say "Oh, no maps to look at today!" Open up your eyes.

2:People won't even know who you are most likely. I've learned you can't just come on NUMA and pull great maps out of your butt and expect them to get rated by the best mapmakers. Get noticed by the community.

3:Crawl out of your hole and get active in the forums. Participate in map-packs and collabs and such. Winning contests is also a great way to get yourself noticed.

Being part of the community is what mapmaking is about for me. If you aren't very good at mapmaking, read the guides that were posted earlier or ask for some critique and help. The great mapmakers usually are there to help out people that want to get better at mapmaking. Look at other people's maps. Don't copy them, but look at what people like atob tend to have in their maps. Of course, it takes practice to get to that level that atob, Kablizzy, and other people are on, but you can get there if you try. The forums are probably the best way to get yourself noticed if you are new.


Thank you for your time.

[wolfgang]

Not to get involved (or repeat myself), but the Hot Maps page isn't for newest maps. It's for really good recent maps.

Active Authors is for the newest maps.

I really think you need to tweak the system that runs Hot Maps if you want to emphasise this. Because in reality Hot Maps is completely dominated by newly submitted maps, whatever their quality. If you went to Hot Maps with your expectations you would be disappointed.

Maybe make it so that a map has to be rated well before it even appears on Hot Maps?

[blue_tetris]

Not to get involved (or repeat myself), but the Hot Maps page isn't for newest maps. It's for really good recent maps.

Active Authors is for the newest maps.

I really think you need to tweak the system that runs Hot Maps if you want to emphasise this. Because in reality Hot Maps is completely dominated by newly submitted maps, whatever their quality. If you went to Hot Maps with your expectations you would be disappointed.

Maybe make it so that a map has to be rated well before it even appears on Hot Maps?

I've been meaning to speak with arachnid about bumping up the amount that a float or sink affects things. He's been busy working for Google!

[Nexx]

Not to get involved (or repeat myself), but the Hot Maps page isn't for newest maps. It's for really good recent maps.

Active Authors is for the newest maps.

I really think you need to tweak the system that runs Hot Maps if you want to emphasise this. Because in reality Hot Maps is completely dominated by newly submitted maps, whatever their quality. If you went to Hot Maps with your expectations you would be disappointed.

Whole-heartedly agreed. b_t has long touted that view of his, but it makes little sense to me. All or most of the maps on the Hot Maps page are new, while only 1/6 of the maps on the Active Authors page are actually new. Even if the float/sink system was given more emphasis so that Hot Maps fulfilled its claimed role, that doesn't mean the Active Authors page is a good system for finding new maps.

[Velocirooster]

I probably could have made a map sweet enough to get rated in all the time I just wasted reading this thread. Whining about other people whining just makes you a whiner, and that's what you were whining about in the first place. I think. I'm going to make a map and try to get it rated and commented upon.

[NicNac14]

... one month and all this has happened.. thanks for those who used their heads not their asses...
this should be helpfull...

[isaacx]

I'm sure anyone in the MRG will tell you that I leave constructive feedback (with few exceptions). I have RCDE'd almost 300 maps in the past 2.5 months while submitting only about 5 of my own, and each of those got a whopping 3 or 4 rates on its own (not just from Hot Maps). My point is not that constructive feedback isn't worth it - it is, even if you receive nothing in return. But people always talk like it will somehow cause others to show more interest in your maps. I have yet to observe that.

AMEN!!!

I don't see why anyone cares about ratings anyways

[origami_alligator]

b_t has long touted that view of his, but it makes little sense to me. All or most of the maps on the Hot Maps page are new, while only 1/6 of the maps on the Active Authors page are actually new.

If I can ever get my life together enough I have a project in the works for a redesign of Active Authors but it will take a lot of tweaking to get everything just right, as well as a possible intro to Javascript. oh well, I'll do it when I have time I hope, because I think it'll turn out looking really nice when it is all said and done.