The Importance of Math and Science in N

[Rose]

Whoa. I'm making a seeker drone map, and I just realized how helpful this is when timing drones :P

[EdoI]

I said no, although it was interesting reading it.

[Brainwasher]

So great- I was wondering about these kind of things yesterday. If you do another one, it should be about the algorithms. The gauss algorithm is the gaussian curve (the bell curve).

[Amadeus]

Roger

[isaacx]

too bad i havent yet
yeah this is very interesting just it would be nice if someone found a purpose / application for this in N.
you should also include seeker drones [would be helpful]

[Nexx]

The gauss algorithm is the gaussian curve (the bell curve).

That's the algorithm for determining the gauss turret's target speed. I think it would be quite interesting if, for once, somebody could comment on what algorithm is used to determine when it shoots. That would be sooo much more useful, and I'm sure it would be quite interesting in its own right.

There is also an interesting fact that n will hit the ground at the same frame whether he is falling straight down or at an angle, Making his falling speed when he is falling fully to the left or right, faster than falling straight.

Umm... by "falling speed", are you referring to total speed? Because then yes, that's true, but that's basic kinematics. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

[TheRealOne]

There is also an interesting fact that n will hit the ground at the same frame whether he is falling straight down or at an angle, Making his falling speed when he is falling fully to the left or right, faster than falling straight.

Umm... by "falling speed", are you referring to total speed? Because then yes, that's true, but that's basic kinematics. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

To start, Look at the falling ninja. If you just let him fall straight down along the black line that takes a certain amount of time (t) now if hold left the whole time you are falling you will hit the ground following the red line he will hit the ground in the same time (t) as falling straight down. And since we know by the rule of right triangles the red line is longer than the black line so using the elementary speed formula distance divided by time. (d/t) we can determine that (Dr is the length of the red line, Db is the length of the black line.) Dr/t > Db/t. So the ninja is traveling faster when falling at and angle. I think this is because of the fact that you can control yourself in the air it messes with the physics engine alittle.

Now no to jumping speed. If the ninja is running at full speed along the green line from the point where the blue and green curves intersect first (from left to right) he will reach the second intersection in time (t) and if he jumps at the first intersection point and you hold right the whole time he will reach the second intersection point following the blue line in the same time (t). We also know by the simple rule that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, that means that the blue line is longer than the green line (between the intersection points). so by the same rule above Db/t > Dg/t.

So I was asking if we can figure out those equations of n's jumping speeds, and, This would take so much work, but we could also come up with a function to determine n's velocity while falling at what angle and for how long.

[Amadeus]

There is also an interesting fact that n will hit the ground at the same frame whether he is falling straight down or at an angle, Making his falling speed when he is falling fully to the left or right, faster than falling straight.

Umm... by "falling speed", are you referring to total speed? Because then yes, that's true, but that's basic kinematics. Unless I'm misunderstanding you.

To start, Look at the falling ninja. If you just let him fall straight down along the black line that takes a certain amount of time (t) now if hold left the whole time you are falling you will hit the ground following the red line he will hit the ground in the same time (t) as falling straight down. And since we know by the rule of right triangles the red line is longer than the black line so using the elementary speed formula distance divided by time. (d/t) we can determine that (Dr is the length of the red line, Db is the length of the black line.) Dr/t > Db/t. So the ninja is traveling faster when falling at and angle. I think this is because of the fact that you can control yourself in the air it messes with the physics engine alittle.

Now no to jumping speed. If the ninja is running at full speed along the green line from the point where the blue and green curves intersect first (from left to right) he will reach the second intersection in time (t) and if he jumps at the first intersection point and you hold right the whole time he will reach the second intersection point following the blue line in the same time (t). We also know by the simple rule that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line, that means that the blue line is longer than the green line (between the intersection points). so by the same rule above Db/t > Dg/t.

So I was asking if we can figure out those equations of n's jumping speeds, and, This would take so much work, but we could also come up with a function to determine n's velocity while falling at what angle and for how long.

False
N does not travel faster
Gravity pulls at an equal rate, regardless of horizontal movement

[Nexx]

False
N does not travel faster
Gravity pulls at an equal rate, regardless of horizontal movement

Okay, let's set things straight.

Downward force is the same for both paths, thus downward velocity at any given point is the same for both paths. Total speed is greater for moving to the left because you have the added speed of moving to the left. "Falling speed" is a confusing name because it could mean either "total speed when falling" or "total speed in the vertical axis". As I just said, total speeds are different, but vertical speeds are the same.

@TheRealOne: Based on the way you pointed it out, it sounds like you think this is unrealistic. If that's true, I ask you: how so?

[chume14]

i'm not going to bother to quote everything above you know what I'm talking about

This problem arises from the issue of horizontal movement in the first place breaking N's mid-air movement into horizontal and vertical components its clear gravity only acts in the vertical component and therefor can only cause vertical acceleration and therefor vertical speed

assuming n starts at rest holding the arrows must involve another force acting on N with a horizontal component (which isn't really physically possible in the way its represented in the game) which allows him to start moving sideways in the air as well as down

if n starts with a horizontal speed this will make no noticeable difference (it might increase air resistance) as this gives no acceleration or force and therefor can never affect the vertical speed at which n falls

Possible explanations

1) N curves his body in mid air thus changing the way in which the air moves around his body and there for the overall direction of air resistance. Assuming air resistance remains overall constant

This would mean while not pressing arrows air resistance would act strait up and there for overall downward acceleration would be
(force of gravity - air resistance)/(N's mass)
but while pressing arrows
(force of gravity - the vertical component of air resistance)/(N's mass)
As the vertical component of air resistance while pressing arrows can't possiby be as large as the overall air resistance in this situation N should fall slower with arrows
Therefore its wrong that he should fall at the same speed regardless


2) N curves his body in mid air thus changing the way in which the air moves around his body and there for the overall direction of air resistance. Not assuming air resistance remains overall constant

As air resistance changes it is not possible to tell which position of N falling (normal or the one he goes into when arrows are pressed) would have more total air resistance and therefor which would have a higher vertical component however it is very very unlikely they would just happen to be exactly right for it to be the same in both cases
Therefore its wrong that he should fall at the same speed regardless


3) N has a magic power which allows him to start moving sideways in mid air (this would require a hypothetical horizontal force to act on N and breaks consevation of momentum boo hiss)

In this case the magic horizontal force will not affect his vertical acceleration at all
Therefore its right that he should fall at the same speed regardless


4) N gets the ability to move sideways from somewhere else

Work it out with a bit of simple mechanics (or ask me)


5) diffrent laws of physics apply in N-land

I can't help you


So to sum up it depends where you think n gets his mid air change in horizontal movement from. =)



Don't know why I care so much

[Nexx]

@chume14:
Well, this is what I responded to:

So the ninja is traveling faster when falling at and angle. I think this is because of the fact that you can control yourself in the air it messes with the physics engine alittle.

As written, that means that the ability to control yourself in the air causes faulty behavior in the physics engine, resulting in the ninja traveling faster when falling at an angle. Thus the velocity is where the fault in the physics engine is detectable (and that's what I responded to). As you have pointed out, chume14, the ability to control yourself in the air is the faulty behavior in the physics engine. The force comes from nowhere, thus violating Newton's 3rd law. (And btw, it's not that you shouldn't be able to control yourself in the air, just that you shouldn't be able to control yourself in air in the way the ninja does it in N.)

I think we should all be on the same page now.

[chume14]

And btw, it's not that you shouldn't be able to control yourself in the air, just that you shouldn't be able to control yourself in air in the way the ninja does it in N.

thats what I meant by

(which isn't really physically possible in the way its represented in the game)

I think we should all be on the same page now.

The force comes from nowhere, thus violating Newton's 3rd law.

Well not really my point is that the force dosen't necessarily come from nowhere skydivers, wingsuit base-jumpers and other people with a passion for falling have found that they have a small ability to control the direction of their movement in the air via changing their body position. This works because gravity is not the only force acting on them there is also air-resistance. Now if the N-world has no air resistance then I totally agree with you the force comes from nowhere and N should hit the ground at the same time with or without arrows.

However if the N world contains air resistance then this changes things

During normal decent the air resistance will act directly upwards and will have little effect other than slowing N's decent a little and if the air resistance is not constant (it increases proportionally to the square of velocity in the real world) perhaps lead to a terminal velocity



now the downward force acting on him is gravity(g)-the air resistance(ar)

During decent while arrows are being pressed N takes on a different position, the air flows round him in another non symmetrical way on N, the resultant force of this air resistance is not constant, this causes N to move sideways in the air.



now the downward force acting on him is gravity(g)-part of the air resistance(arv)
but the air resistance has also changed so the total force acting down will be different

This all sums up to mean air resistance could explain the force which allows him to move sideways and also conserve momentum but it would result in him hitting the ground at a different time sorry if you still don't understand its quite complicated so I find it hard to explain

edit: arhhh my pictures aren't working can you help me with that

[Nexx]

However if the N world contains air resistance then this changes things.
...
This all sums up to mean air resistance could explain the force which allows him to move sideways and also conserve momentum but it would result in him hitting the ground at a different time

The program does calculate air resistance (apparently -- I didn't know that, but it's there on the list of playermod attributes). However, since the ninja hits the ground at the same time for both paths, we can conclude that any controlled horizontal force does not come from air resistance (and by the way, it's extremely unlikely that a little Flash game would calculate something uber-complicated like that). But then there's nothing left to explain the origin of the force - it simply comes into being, thereby breaking conservation of momentum.

Okay, now we should all understand each other.

[Amadeus]

I'm testing air resistance by calculating acceleration per tenth of a second now
Also, now that I have nreality, will find the rotation speed of alarm drones and such
Also the rate at which greed drones drain time/gold

[chume14]

The original debate was wether or not n should hit the ground at the same time.

You argued that he should. My argument was that if it was air resistance that caused his horizontal movement then he shouldn't but otherwise he should. So you then arguing that there can't be air resistance cause he hits the ground at the same time is essentially circular do you see.

I was using the air resistance argument postulate he shouldn't hit the ground at the same time. So you can't use the fact that he hits the ground at the same time to say there is no air resistance.

I'm sorry I'm finding it really hard to explain this its all got rather complicated and I know what I mean but I find it hard to explain it

just to add a further layer of complexity I don't actually believe what I've said above is necessarily true I just gave it as one of my options in my original post and thought it merited further explanation.

as for

(and by the way, it's extremely unlikely that a little Flash game would calculate something uber-complicated like that)

though that is a good point I don't really know anything about flash programing so your probably right on that one, I'm used to coding in basic issues like this are a simple matter of adding 2 vectors but it may well be a lot harder in flash (I'm trying to learn other languages). However anyway I've been referring to how we can explain the figures the game gives up in terms of real world physics as opposed to how the game calculates these figures so I think we're on slightly different pages

[Nexx]

The original debate was wether or not n should hit the ground at the same time.

You argued that he should. My argument was that if it was air resistance that caused his horizontal movement then he shouldn't but otherwise he should. So you then arguing that there can't be air resistance cause he hits the ground at the same time is essentially circular do you see.

It's not too complicated. The progression of the debate is not circular because the original debate was WHY the ninja hits the ground at the same time. I said it was obvious why, while my debatee thought that it wasn't physically realistic. You latched onto that last part and explained how it COULD be physically realistic, but only if the ninja DIDN'T hit the ground at the same time. You hypothesized that a law of physics was being broken. I used the fact that the ninja hits the ground at the same time to confirm it. Notice that there are two separate topics.

I was using the air resistance argument postulate he shouldn't hit the ground at the same time. So you can't use the fact that he hits the ground at the same time to say there is no air resistance.

Yes, I can.

If A, then B.
Not B.
Therefore, not A.

Replace A with "air resistance", and B with "the ninja hits the ground at the same time", and you have our debate exactly.

issues like this are a simple matter of adding 2 vectors

Oh, I wasn't thinking of simplifying it like that, but that's a good point. In any case, really all I'm saying is that it's too complicated a physical concept for a simple little flash game. Not that it couldn't have been put it, just that it very probably wouldn't be.

[TheRealOne]

Alright to end this controversy. I miss spoke when i said it was a flaw in the physics engine because i was thinking of other things. BUT that still dosent change the fact that the ninja is traveling faster along the red line when falling than the black line. AND I just want to know this because if we could figure out how much faster i might be able to make a cool map idea out of it.

[Amadeus]

Addition: a laser shoots for 113 frames

[Rose]

Addition: a laser shoots for 113 frames

Now figure out how many frames there are between a rocket crashing and the launcher firing again. I think it's around the range of 6-11.

[Amadeus]

Its 13 maxson
A chaingun fires for 1 frame and takes 6 to reload
A laser shoots for 113 frames and takes 42 to reload. The laser is not dangerous until after 30 frames.

[Rose]

A chaingun fires for 1 frame and takes 6 to reload

Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but I'm pretty sure that the noise it makes as it's preparing to fire (a.k.a. reload) lasts a lot longer than 6 frames.

[Amadeus]

my bad
a chaingun shoots 5 times with lapses of 6 frames and each shot taking a single frame
then he does not fire for 115 frames and repeats

[Amadeus]

I've added a section on proportional average size of the game (in feet). If necessary, I can convert it to meters.

[zoasBE]

I know that isn't serious or too good posting in death topics, but I've just discovered this one and I must say that IS REALLY NICE Topic. Now go back to the first page, and is probably there are more people unknowing this like me. Then they have a chance. Really good work here.

[runningninja]

As a physics major/perpetual math geek, I found this analysis very intriguing. Thanks for doing the research.