Intelligence in Nature

[otters]

Stemming from the Veganism thread, wherein Tsukatu observed that humanity has an almost obscenely advanced intellectual system that outfunctions the faculties of any other animal by such a long shot that none of them have come even close to our intelligence. (relevant post)
This caused me to be curious about how such a system could have evolved; how an object such as the brain could have achieved such levels of intelligence through natural selection; how anything as unnatural as the soul managed to develop under such conditions.

Discuss.

[OneSevenNine]

I'd just like to say that assuming we have souls doesn't seem fair to the opposing argument in that it forces them to be explained, so I'll leave that part alone for now. That in itself deserves a seperate thread entirely. Also, would I end up incorrect if I said that this thread seemed about Intelligent Design vs. Darwinism?

And why did you bother referencing the veganism thread? Smells like a bit of an unnecessary non sequitur to me. But anyway...

To answer your question, I don't think anyone knows exactly how it happened, but Darwinism remains the only prominent scientific theory that describes the origins of life. Somehow, I've always felt that the 4-odd billion years since earth's creation would've let Darwinism run its course quite nicely.

I mean, four billion years seems more than I can imagine. I see no reason that something of unimaginable complexity couldn't have evolved in an unimaginable amount of time.

But hey, if it turns out that four billion years wouldn't have done enough, I'll just say that a god or force or something of that nature lent a hand to speed it up here and there.

[otters]

but Darwinism remains the only prominent scientific theory that describes the origins of life.

*ugh*, *ugh*, and *ugh*. But this isn't the Evolution thread.

Somehow, I've always felt that the 4-odd billion years since earth's creation would've let Darwinism run its course quite nicely.

*shrug* I guess, but arguing that it must have developed somehow because it had enough time has never held water in my view.

And why did you bother referencing the veganism thread? Smells like a bit of an unnecessary non sequitur to me.

Ehh, I read Suki's post and thought it was interesting, because our intelligence figured pretty strongly into one of his points.

Also, would I end up incorrect if I said that this thread seemed about Intelligent Design vs. Darwinism?

Yes.

[Lenny]

This caused me to be curious about how such a system could have evolved; how an object such as the brain could have achieved such levels of intelligence through natural selection; how anything as unnatural as the soul managed to develop under such conditions.

Firstly, I just wanted to ask if you've read The Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy.

It seems to me like you're assuming two things here. You're assuming that we are the most intelligent being - perhaps we're just the best at showing our intelligence. Also it seems like you're assuming that there is a soul - not that I'm trying to argue that there isn't, but just saying.

And I'd just like to combat your statement about intelligence by saying that we don't. We have higher levels of intelligence, possibly, than other creates. But I think there's still a long way that we could evolve. Unfortunately, it's expected that a computer will reach the level of a human brain in 2013 (and that there will be one equal to the whole population nearer to 2050), so we won't need to evolve.
As to how we evolved specifically, we needed to. We wouldn't have evolved if we didn't need to - another possible reason why will won't evolve much more. There would have been something that caused humans to need a higher intelligence, so we evolved to get it.

I can't get into a debate about the soul because I'll get completely lost, but I'd be willing to suggest that a soul is actually more of a conscience.

[epigone]

I believe I learned somewhere along the way that the primary reason we evolved intelligence was because unless we were able to be extremely social and work together in groups, we'd be extinct a long time ago. Compared to many other animals of our size (and remember we were much smaller back during the evolution of the brain) we were relatively weak and slow. In order to not get mauled by more carnivorous animals, intelligence was required to outhink them, thus increasing the chance for survival just enough. Those who weren't able to evolve intellegence all died out - thus, we have our current homo sapien.

[Condog]

I like how epigone puts it. We needed intelligence, the ability to adapt to different situations, to think logically, to be able to survive. And once we evolved to the point where we are the dominant lifeform on earth, we no longer need to evolve. We can shape our environment instead of it shaping us, so the rate that our intelligence level increases over time has become much smaller.

[otters]

That makes sense.

Is there any sensible proof for your argument? Flesh obviously doesn't last as long as the bone in fossils.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

Is there any sensible proof for your argument? Flesh obviously doesn't last as long as the bone in fossils.

I remember reading something about evidence of divinely bestowed intelligence on the fossil of a Cro-Magnon's soul in Eastern Europe. Google News it or something.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

What's a soul?

[blue_tetris]

This caused me to be curious about how such a system could have evolved; how an object such as the brain could have achieved such levels of intelligence through natural selection; how anything as unnatural as the soul managed to develop under such conditions.

Pretty straight-forward. Creatures with brains are good at doing things which require brains. Big creatures came upon and devoured stupider hominids. Those who were more intelligent knew how to make spears and use communicative skills to bond together, so they weren't as easily killed. Also, this propensity for language and socialization (as endowed by the human brain) allowed for us to mate more readily than other hominids. Those hominids died off and didn't get to procreate; smarter hominids survived and made babies.

Other modern species, without bkeen minds, had to find other ways to survive. Bacteria are innumerable and good at procreating fast and just about anywhere; that's why they're among the modern species. Dogs are quick scavengers and are pretty smart and rather serviceable; that's why they're among the modern species. Humans are amazingly smart, very adaptable, and can run Fortune 500 companies and put flags on space rocks; that's why they're among the modern species.

[otters]

Is there any sensible proof for your argument? Flesh obviously doesn't last as long as the bone in fossils.

I remember reading something about evidence of divinely bestowed intelligence on the fossil of a Cro-Magnon's soul in Eastern Europe.

Er...right.

My point is the huge gap between human intelligence and the intelligence of the next level, but I think everyone's pretty much answered my question by now. Thanks.

[Condog]

What's a soul?

You know, that thing inside that will live in happiness forever if you do what God says or will burn forever if you don't.

[KinGAleX]

As to this issue, I'm of the thought that it doesn't exactly matter where we came from, or how we ended up this way, because through one serendipitous act (or fuck-up) or another, my readily observable truth is that we have. Hell, the possibility of extraterrestrial lifeforms visiting some specific intelligent humans before the industrial revolution probably would explain the rush in technological expansion just as well as the presence of war. I'm not saying it's not a worthy topic, I'm just pointing out that although I'm not really saying anything with regard to the topic, it's because I've found myself to be beyond the point of caring exactly how and where we came from*. I'm sure that question will be answered in some form when I die. If not, good thing I didn't get my hopes up. With my digression I hope I explained that I really think there are a few other problems the world is facing that we could be worried about. Unfortunately for most of us, working out why world leaders tend to be shorter than the average population isn't going to get rid of the supposed climate crisis, wipe out third-world hunger, clear your mortgage, ensure your retirement fund is ample, or help your band to rise to stardom. Apologies for considering this a non-issue.

*Not entirely true. One cannot help oneself from thinking about existential matters, but I've gotten to a point where I realise how little it matters, and where I believe in (or hold to be true) a certain way of thinking, so for me, at this time, the question is dead.

[DemonzLunchBreak]

I think everyone's pretty much answered my question by now. Thanks.

Would you say that this thread still serves a purpose, or should I lock it?

You know, that thing inside that will live in happiness forever if you do what God says or will burn forever if you don't.

Right, I know what it does. I just don't understand what it is.

[otters]

Lock it.

[t̷s͢uk̕a͡t͜ư]

What's a soul?

Just for the record, this is an excellent preliminary question.

[LittleViking]

Human intelligence, as we think of it, can be entirely attributed to the fine motor control.

Since the days of early fish and reptiles, our evolutionary branch has had a brain. Now, as wonderful as a brain is, it really doesn't endow much to its owner. A brain can interpret the vast network of sensory organs that animals have - the sight, touch, smell - and output a response. It gives some capacity for memory, both long term and short. An alligator might see something it remembers as prey, and the brain will send a response to chase after it.

But this wasn't enough for mammals. Mammals developed a neocortex, a part of the brain exclusive to them. The neocortex sits on a part of the old brain used for sensory inputs, and records these inputs for later playback. Mammals now had the ability to vividly recall things that had happened to them. A mammal could see a familiar face and recognize who it was. A mammal could blaze a trail and remember the turns it took to get there. When I talk about bacon, you know it's delicious because of the neocortex entries you have on bacon. Anything related to senses could be stored here and imagined again later.

Humans took the neocortex a step further, and this is what sets us apart from all other animals. The human neocortex extends all the way over the part of the brain used for motor control. With a vivid memory for motor control, humans could now perform skilled motor tasks. Humans could write letters and words, humans could move their mouths and tongues in such a specific way to create speech. With the ability to speak and write, humans could pass their knowledge to other humans. This is a big step. Bigger than you can appreciate. No human alive would have ever reasoned out every aspect of the universe, but with thousands of years of research to build on, the incremental aspects we do discover are worth something. And now with the establishments of school and science, the sum of human knowledge continues to skyrocket.



Also, a brief history of life on Earth, for the people saying that anything can happen given time:

4.6 billion years ago, the Earth is formed. Molten rock coalesces into a solid mantle and crust, giving some opportunity for life to form. Water covers the Earth, and a thick atmosphere protects the surface from cosmic radiation. (Though the atmosphere now is low in oxygen. Life will depend on CO2.) For a billion years, no life existed, but chemical reactions fueled by sunlight build toward sustainable life.

3.5 billion years ago, the first single-celled bacteria emerge. A billion years without life, a quarter of the Earth's history, and now we have bacteria. These bacteria can do very little other than photosynthesize and replicate themselves.

2.1 billion years ago, the first multi-cellular organisms appear. Another billion years, and life is starting to form into something meaningful. Over the next 500 million years, the mass of photosynthesizing life that has developed burns through the planet's CO2 and oxygenates the atmosphere. Unfortunately for them, the oxygen will prove toxic and cause a mass extinction of early life, but the multi-cellular life will adapt and move on.

By about 600 million years ago, macroscopic life (both plant and animal) really start to develop. From this time period, we have fossils of algae, sponges, worms, shellfish - very primitive life, but life nonetheless. Another 200 million years pass, and we start to see fish and land-based plants. 100 million years after fish develop, we get reptiles and early dinosaurs.

So there you are. Just to educate the people who think Earth was always the lush jungle paradise it is today. The first quarter of the Earth's history was spent with no life at all, and the second quarter only saw single-celled bacteria. Natural selection has still had a long time to work, but all the development you'd recognize happened in the last 400-600 million years. 90% of our history was spent in the microscopic realm.

[otters]

...

LV, this was locked, because the debate was over.

KA Edit: Don't ever tell off an admin. The topic was reopened because there was still discussion to be had, not just a question of yours to be addressed. People still have things to say on the subject, unrelated to your petty whims.

Point taken, I'm sorry, that was really stupid.

[LittleViking]

There's no reason a serious debate topic should ever be closed after just three and a half hours. Obviously, there might be people who want to contribute to the discussion who aren't here every hour of the day (like me, who posted a useful post with new information just an hour after you shut the place down). You're acting like you own the thread - once you post something here, it goes into the arena of the community.

[otters]

Point taken. I'm sorry. That was really stupid.

Go ahead, LV.

[jean-luc]

Just a couple days ago I attended a lecture from Dr. Richard Leaky (part of the Linus Pauling Memorial Lecture Series in Portland, OR). For those of you who aren't familiar with Leaky, he comes from a long line of very prominent researchers focusing on primates and the origins of human life, and he carries on the tradition as one of the world's leading scientists studying human evolution.

He indicated in the lecture that our success as a race is almost entirely attributable to our development of complex language, which I agree with.

At the end of the lecture he took questions. Someone asked why humans evolved complex speech while other primates didn't. He stated that this is one of the most significant mysteries in the study of human origins.

[otters]

Someone asked why humans evolved complex speech while other primates didn't. He stated that this is one of the most significant mysteries in the study of human origins.

Hmmmmm...

[Zora_S_Kenneth]

A possibility for complex speech: As quite a few of us here know, during a reproductive cycle, to put it delicately, there is sequence of minor modifications to human DNA that are later put to the test by trial and error. I expect that those with a slightly more developed cranium were more likely to survive, and promptly did so. They passed those genes down, where some more modifications were made. Eventually, we got to the level we are at now.

[otters]

Interesting...still, that's quite a severe, localized series of improvements.

[notsteve]

well if we were smarted originally, we needed some way to communicate to figure out complex hunting techniques etc.
i assume that at first the language was very simple, but as the people that were better at it caught more food, they prospered and language evolved